Are Protestants the Real ‘Catholic’ Christians?

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NoelFitz

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I read with interest the article ‘Are Protestants the Real ‘Catholic’ Christians’ by Trent Horn. I found it of great interest, but I am always surprised when articles are written by converts not cradle Catholics. Converts seem to know much more than we do, in spite of a life-time in the Church.

There seems no place to discuss these articles in CA, so I will try here.

I am reminded of the late Prof Joad, who might have said ‘it all depends on what you mean by Protestant’.

First of all are Anglicans (Church of England/Ireland, Episcopalians) Protestant), many consider themselves Anglo-Catholics? Are Lutherans really Protestant, believing in the Real Presence? Do we have to wait for Calvin for real Protestants to emerge?

Are those baptized in a Catholic church but rejecting the Church’s teaching on contraception and IVF, and not going to Mass or sacraments, and disagreeing with the bishops really Catholic?

One wonders. What makes one a Catholic?

I also think of the old argument about whether Anglican orders are valid.
 
NoelFitz said:
I also think of the old argument about whether Anglican orders are valid.
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It is complicated because some priests were consecrated with the assistance of Old Catholic bishops, but OTOH, some Anglicans permit women clergy?
There was a case in the news of a Catholic priest who got married and then went over to the Episcopal Church. Would his Mass said for his Episcopal Church congregation be valid?
 
I don’t claim to be entirely orthodox on this in terms of Catholic teaching but I have always believed that the basics of calling oneself Christian involve justification by faith - assent/practice of Scripture, Church teaching/doctrine/sacraments within the original Church of the Apostles of Jesus Christ. I place baptism and the Eucharist as the two most important sacraments - by far. So from this viewpoint I accept Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans and Lutherans - liturgical Protestants I say - as ‘true’ Christians. Mind you the number of traditionalist leaning Lutherans, Anglicans, or even Catholics or Orthodox is not that big. Also I allow quite a bit of room for God’s grace to work with other Christians and even nonChristians. We all have the rather startling, humbling experience of meeting from time to time a kinder better ‘Christian’ than ourselves or many in our Church … practicing in another Christian Church or even none. Makes you wonder just what all those Eucharists are really doing for people (myself included). God picks those he picks. That means more to me than worrying about whether I am a real Christian in this or that Church. I just aim to get/stay picked.
 
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I’m not sure if converts know more than we do holds up. In many cases, yes.
Converts have more RECENT and MORE THOROUGH catechesis sometimes.
If you put Cradle Catholics in Adult Ed…they’re be much “OH WOW I NEVER KNEW THAT” being uttered, LOL

We have many cradle Catholics come to RCIA for a “refresher course” and they ask some shocking questions. I wish more would attend Adult RE or come to RCIA. I think they would find it really interesting, fun, and illuminating. They would also become “aflame” for God like the recent converts do. 😎
 
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The cradle Catholics are a welcome addition to our RCIA. Often they learn something, but more importantly their presence tangibly shows the idea of community that the newcomers will be experiencing.
 
FollowChrist34

I agree that you seem not to be entirely orthodox.
I had thought for a Protestant acceptance of Christ makes one a Christian, while for a Catholic we are made so by our baptism.
 
I didn’t think any protestant church’s believed in the Real Presence in the way Catholics and Orthodox do. You know, don’t Lutherans subscribe to 'consubstantiation or something like that?
 
NoelFitz said:
I read with interest the article ‘Are Protestants the Real ‘Catholic’ Christians’ by Trent Horn. I found it of great interest, but I am always surprised when articles are written by converts not cradle Catholics. Converts seem to know much more than we do, in spite of a life-time in the Church.

There seems no place to discuss these articles in CA, so I will try here.

I am reminded of the late Prof Joad, who might have said ‘it all depends on what you mean by Protestant’.

First of all are Anglicans (Church of England/Ireland, Episcopalians) Protestant), many consider themselves Anglo-Catholics? Are Lutherans really Protestant, believing in the Real Presence? Do we have to wait for Calvin for real Protestants to emerge?

Are those baptized in a Catholic church but rejecting the Church’s teaching on contraception and IVF, and not going to Mass or sacraments, and disagreeing with the bishops really Catholic?

One wonders. What makes one a Catholic?

I also think of the old argument about whether Anglican orders are valid.
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Jesus established one Church ONLY, 2000 years ago on Peter and those in union with him.
All His promises go to His Church.
Outside of which there is no salvation.
His Church will always be here and will never fail.
It’s name is the Catholic Church from the first century.
The history is all there, and easy to provide.

If any of this falls apart, then Jesus isn’t who He says He is, and we are all screwed…
 
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There are many types of Protestantism. Classical 16th Protestantism, such as Lutheranism, requires baptism. It is a sacrament. (and acceptance of Christ)
 
Depends on how clinical you want to get. The Lutherans believe in the Real Presence. They believe that the bread and wine remain bread and wine but that Jesus is truly present as flesh and blood in/under/through the bread and wine. They don’t explain it much beyond that - it is actually quite close to the Orthodox.

Martin Luther on those who deny the Real Presence, believing it to be only a sign:
"Who, but the devil, has granted such license of wresting the words of the holy Scripture? Who ever read in the Scriptures, that my body is the same as the sign of my body? or, that is is the same as it signifies? What language in the world ever spoke so? It is only then the devil, that imposes upon us by these fanatical men. Not one of the Fathers of the Church, though so numerous, ever spoke as the Sacramentarians: not one of them ever said, It is only bread and wine; or, the body and blood of Christ is not there present.

Surely, it is not credible, nor possible, since they often speak, and repeat their sentiments, that they should never (if they thought so) not so much as once, say, or let slip these words: It is bread only; or the body of Christ is not there, especially it being of great importance, that men should not be deceived. Certainly, in so many Fathers, and in so many writings, the negative might at least be found in one of them, had they thought the body and blood of Christ were not really present: but they are all of them unanimous.”
 
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NoelFitz said:
different Protestants believe different things, and some believe in transubstantiation.
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Hi Noel, I don’t know what happened but I wouldn’t and didn’t write that some Protestants believe in transubstantiation, consubstantiation yes
 
Benadam

I wrote that some Protestants believe in transubstantiation. Consubstantiation is the usual belief of more main-line Protestants, but especially in the Anglican Church belief is at times similar to Catholicism.
 
NoelFitz said:
Thanks for all replies.

Benadam,
different Protestants believe different things, and some believe in transubstantiation.

Steve B,
you claim ‘Outside of which there is no salvation.out’.

‘Extra ecclesiam nulla salus’.

Are you really claiming that only Catholics will get to heaven?
You might like to look at What "No Salvation Outside the Church" Means | Catholic Answers
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Not if they are CINO Catholics. Catholic in name only. According to a Georgetown Univ study, http://cara.georgetown.edu/frequently-requested-church-statistics/
78% of Catholics are C & E Catholics. They go to mass on Christmas and Easter if at all. If they don’t go to confession confessing all that mortal sin, and receive Eucharist on those 2 days they heap sacrilege on top of mortal sin. If they die in that condition what do you think happens?

As far as humanity is concerned, Jesus already told us in advance how it will go in eternity for humanity.

Matthew 7:13-14 , Mt 7:13-14 RSVCE - The Narrow Gate - “Enter by the - Bible Gateway

Luke 13:23-28 , Lk 13:23-28 RSVCE - And some one said to him, “Lord, will - Bible Gateway

BTW

These warnings don’t go outta style for those who won’t come into the Catholic Church or remain in it.

Romans 16:17-20 Douay-Rheims Bible, Romans Chapter 16, Galatians 5:19-21 Douay-Rheims Bible, Galatians Chapter 5 both use the same Greek word [διχοστασίαι,] for dissension / division [http://bibleapps.com/greek/1370.htm] And the consequence for that sin? _ Paul says “I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God”_. IOW they go to hell when they die

What Church is the only Church that is there from the beginning, Jesus builds on Peter and those in union with him? The Catholic Church
 
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