Are Public Debates Appropriate?

[Lazerlike42]

By a decree of Alexander IV (1254-1261) inserted in “Sextus Decretalium”, Lib. V, c. ii, and still in force, all laymen are forbidden, under threat of excommunication to dispute publicly or privately with heretics on the Catholic Faith.

The text reads: “Inhibemus quoque, ne cuiquam laicæ personæ liceat publice vel privatim de fide catholicâ disputare. Qui vero contra fecerit, excommunicationis laqueo innodetur.”

The translation:

“We furthermore forbid any lay person to engage in dispute, either private or public, concerning the Catholic Faith. Whosoever shall act contrary to this decree, let him be bound in the fetters of excommunication.”

This is a quotation, for which you have provided no citation. This is plagiarism, which is prohibited on the forums, and doesn’t give a very good Christian witness.

In any case, the decree of Pope Alexander is not in force any longer. The Second Vatican Council decrees on ecumenism certainly counter it, as does the 1983 Code of Canon Law:

Can. 229 §1 “Lay people have the duty and the right to acquire the knowledge of Christian teaching which is appropriate to each one’s capacity and condition, so that they may be able to live according to this teaching, to proclaim it and if necessary to defend it, and may be capable of playing their part in the exercise of the apostolate.”

 

[Pug]

The translation:

“We furthermore forbid any lay person to engage in dispute, either private or public, concerning the Catholic Faith. Whosoever shall act contrary to this decree, let him be bound in the fetters of excommunication.”

Ah. The Church can change it’s rules about excommunication. It is a variable. Nevertheless, I think even today one might see a cleric in specific circumstances being told to cease his public disputations or words.

 

[teachccd]

Anyone posting here is in a public debate…

 

[kaycee]

This is a quotation, for which you have provided no citation. This is plagiarism, which is prohibited on the forums, and doesn’t give a very good Christian witness.

In any case, the decree of Pope Alexander is not in force any longer. The Second Vatican Council decrees on ecumenism certainly counter it, as does the 1983 Code of Canon Law:

:tsktsk: did you not see the reference to “Sextus Decretalium”, Lib. V, c. ii? newadvent.org/cathen/05034a.htm

Is your lack of a citation link also plagiarism?

 

[teachccd]

:tsktsk: did you not see the reference to “Sextus Decretalium”, Lib. V, c. ii? newadvent.org/cathen/05034a.htm

Is your lack of a citation link also plagiarism?

Doesn’t this post and those like it respond to the title of this thread?? And the public debates continue…

 

[corrgc]

Greetings Legal Eagle,

That is certianly correct. However, I question whether Truth can be discovered through the debate format. Remember, schools have debating teams the same way they have football teams. People go to debates for the same reasons they go to football games. The participants want to win. The spectators want to be entertained. This no way to approach God…

I definitely see your point. And granted if entertainment is why people are attending/listening or reading debates, to witness a contest - then I agree no real fruit can be attained. However if you witness a contest completely OPEN to the FACTS being developed by the debaters, then seeds can be planted or fruit developed…and yes truth can be discovered.

I recently printed out a debate from the alpha & omega ministires on Sola Scriptura between Pat Madrid and James White. I understand Mr. White is a strong proponent of Sola Scriptura and a leading expert of the doctrine. Mr. White developed his case declaring it to be the truth. As a Christian - this is what I want - the Truth. If I were to (A) pray to the Holy Spirit unceasingly and (B) read the Holy Scriptures daily for years - would that lead me to the Truth? If I were to (C)study Christian History and (D) Apolostolic Traditions - would that lead me to the truth? The answer is not just (A) - it is all of the above. Well by reading this debate I got ALL OF THE ABOVE without having to wait years to be enlightened. I wasn’t interested in who “won”. I was interested in two well developed “arguments” based on facts, history and scripture by two followers of Christ to assist me in determining the Truth as Jesus revealed it.

Thus I do believe truth can be attained from Christian debates, as long as one is open to the facts, knows history and scripture, and prayerfully meditates on all that is revealed.

Sincerely in Christ,
Corrgc

 

[Randy_Carson]

As I have said elsewhere:

How do you suppose Athanasius, Ireneaus and other Fathers of the Church handled the heretics of their day? Or for that matter, what does the Bible say about Paul’s debating with the Jews and Greeks?

1. 
   *]Acts 9:29
   He talked and debated with the Grecian Jews, but they tried to kill him.
   *]Acts 15:2
   This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question.
   *]Acts 18:28
   For he vigorously refuted the Jews in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ.
   I have to disagree with you on this…Protestants who attack the Catholic Church in public must be refuted in public.
   
   And if you think it’s about money, you might want to take a closer look. These guys aren’t getting rich selling books and tapes on folding table in the back of a fellowship hall at a debate venue.

 

[I_Leatherman]

Could you be more specific?

Debates on Catholic Doctrine. IMO.
Is a contradiction for a Catholic.
A debate [normal] is a formal discussion of a subject.
The subject is neutral in that as there must be two sides to a debate there must also be a winner and a loser, there must be a winning position and a losing position on a subject which had been in question - and so, neutral.
Catholic Doctrine is truth revealed by the Divine.
It is not open to debate - in the sense that it is not ours to decide.
It has already been decided.
Catholic Doctrine can be explained, argued for, discussed, and peoples perceptions of doctrine can be debated, as fallable human interpretations or misconceptions of Doctrine have two sides - a true and a false.
As for arguing, I’m with St.Peter, ‘don’t engage in useless arguments’ [para] - the stress being laid on useless. Common sense tells us when a closed mind is bearing down on us.

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

This is a quotation, for which you have provided no citation. This is plagiarism, which is prohibited on the forums, and doesn’t give a very good Christian witness.

In any case, the decree of Pope Alexander is not in force any longer. The Second Vatican Council decrees on ecumenism certainly counter it, as does the 1983 Code of Canon Law:

You cannot infringe the copyright of a medieval Pope. Though it would have been nice to have the quotation sourced, in this day and age you can simply type the Latin into a search engine to check it, if you feel so inclined.

That sort of pastoral teaching, that laymen are forbidden to dispute with heretics, was appropriate for its time, when heretics were few and far between and laymen mostly illiterate. Like all such teachings, it gradually fades away as circumstances change, and unless bishops start pulling people up on it, it becomes obsolete and lapses.

 

[Legal_Eagle]

However if you witness a contest completely OPEN to the FACTS being developed by the debaters, then seeds can be planted or fruit developed…and yes truth can be discovered…

…Thus I do believe truth can be attained from Christian debates, as long as one is open to the facts, knows history and scripture, and prayerfully meditates on all that is revealed.

So then let me ask you a question. In all honesty and sincerity, when you read the debate between Madrid and White on Sola Scriptura were you really open to being convinced that Sola Scriptura is the proper way to understand doctrine? Were you truly open to being convinced that the Catholic Church is in error when it relies on Tradition in conjunction with Scripture?

 

[Lazerlike42]

You cannot infringe the copyright of a medieval Pope. Though it would have been nice to have the quotation sourced, in this day and age you can simply type the Latin into a search engine to check it, if you feel so inclined.

That sort of pastoral teaching, that laymen are forbidden to dispute with heretics, was appropriate for its time, when heretics were few and far between and laymen mostly illiterate. Like all such teachings, it gradually fades away as circumstances change, and unless bishops start pulling people up on it, it becomes obsolete and lapses.

Actually, the quotation of Alexander was not what I was referring to. The whole thing contains both the Alexander quote as well as some comments on it, all of which can be found verbatim elsewhere.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Drifted off topic and closed.