Are sacraments symbols?

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Marp said:
I know hundreds of Catholics that have recieved the sacraments. There lives do not resemble a new life in Christ. Are they symbols of the works of Christ?
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They are symbols that contain what they signify, unlike a street sign that contains a symbol like falling rocks.

The effectiveness of sacramental grace is dependent upon the cooperation of the recipient. If none is not properly disposed, or one does not cooperate with the grace, then the manifestations of it will be negligible.
 
Wow. I think I might need to start a new thread. I have been counting on my priests to represent a human form of God or Christ so receiving sacraments from the ones that are grave sinners is another source of my concern. And none of that matters during a sacrament. Is that a Catholic doctrine?
 
Marp said:
I know my sacraments as taught by the Catholic Church. I know hundreds of Catholics that have recieved the sacraments. There lives do not resemble a new life in Christ. Are they symbols of the works of Christ?
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Yes there are symbols.

Water symbolizes washing.

Oil symbolizes sealing and protection.

A priest symbolizes the head of the Church, Jesus.

Bread symbolizes nutrition which sustains life to the body, which we receive from harvest.

Wine symbolizes celebration and joy which we receive from harvest.

These things are combined with the Word of the Lord, in Sacraments, who is the Holy Spirit which changes them from ordinary or carnal things to spiritual. An ancient Greek meaning of “symbol” was “that which is thrown or cast together” probably having a relation with cymbals.

They are efficacious on God’s part, but man can reject that grace through disbelief and sacrilege.
 
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Like I said I have been reading the Bible which I thiught was the word of God and does this verse explain this? Ephesians 2:8-9 – “By grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.” We are saved by grace through our faith in Christ. Our salvation is unmerited, undeserved and unearned. There is nothing we can ever do to earn the salvation that has been so freely bestowed upon us. It is “not of works, lest any man should boast.”
 
Marp said:
Ha ha so true!!! I do have 11 brothers and sisters all married with 48 grandchildren and most live in Chicago! They are all Catholic and wonderful it is the 2nd cousins I am worried about! All jokes aside. I joined a nondenominational bible study 5 years ago and I am puzzled by the peace and joy they share. The Bible seems to be coming alive to me and gestures
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Yes, there certainly can be genuine seeking and adoration of the Written Word by groups.

I’ve also participated. Before becoming Catholic and after.

Sometimes, I had to often say, “Well, because I’m Catholic, I understand this to mean…”
 
It is absolutely Catholic doctrine that the Sacraments work in spite of the state of the soul of the Priest, if he is in a state of grave sin. The opposing view is an ancient heresy called Donatism.
 
Marp said:
Like I said I have been reading the Bible which I thiught was the word of God and does this verse explain this? Ephesians 2:8-9 – “By grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.” We are saved by grace through our faith in Christ. Our salvation is unmerited, undeserved and unearned. There is nothing we can ever do to earn the salvation that has been so freely bestowed upon us. It is “not of works, lest any man should boast.”
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Yes, this verse explains that salvation is not earned, or Christ would not have needed to suffer.

The Catholic notion of Faith and Works means that faith apart from works is incomplete.

They are really two distinct concepts.
 
Think of it as the mercy of God. If the grace of the sacraments depended upon the holiness of the minister, you’d never be able to be certain that the grace was being given. As it is, it depends upon God working through the minister of his Church, even if that minister is unworthy. And we are all unworthy to some degree.

-Fr ACEGC
 
I only suggest, that if this group you are having Bible study with is testing your Catholic faith more than strengthening your love for Jesus, then step away.

I realize there can be both. Protestant fellowship can definitely be a mixture of encouragement in Christ, and crafty manipulation. Even if they have good intentions.

Heck, a Bible study with Catholics can have it’s own challenges!
 
Is that then Catholic doctrine. I am now unsderstanding my questions. The Bible, the word of God, does not supersede Catholic doctrine. I think that ends my questions on all subjects that I would question. In reading my bible it is as if it comes alive and Christ keeps drawing me near. It is now so that I feel his overwhelming protection. Nothing has brought me so steadfast in love with our lord and savior my life is nothing what it once looked like. Why did this happen to me. I have never before sought God t any pace that resembled the change of me now. Why is his love so Tangible. Maybe I am not Catholic because I love my bible so. I am different from my brothers and sisters Joyful has happened to me. Not sure why me. Still go to Catholic Church now for praise, worship and take pet in the last supper. I think I represent the comparison to once you are a pickle you cannot go back to being a cucumber.
 
Marp said:
The Bible, the word of God, does not supersede Catholic doctrine.
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Maybe I am not Catholic because I love my bible

You do realize that the Bible is a Catholic documnent, right? When someone tells me that their faith is based on the Bible I remind them their Bible is based on my Catholic Church.
 
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I would love to agree but the Bible states Revelations 22, 18-19
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. In my heart I hear Catholic Doctrine making amendments in the name of its own righteousness and I fear the Lord.
 
Could you point out where in the Bible it states it is the complete rule of faith? And how exactly the Catholic Church is adding or taking away from the prophesies found in the book of Revelation?
 
The Ephesians 2:8-9 verse is in tension with James 2:17 (“So you see, it isn’t enough just to have faith. Faith that doesn’t show itself in good deeds is no faith at all - it is dead and useless”). All Christians, Catholic or not, are stuck with unenviable task of trying to reconcile these two seemingly opposing verses.

In my view the Catholic explanation is simplest and clearest - you need both faith and works. I find the non-Catholic explanation awkward and convoluted (“We are saved by faith alone, but then it must manifest itself in works, and if it doesn’t, it wasn’t really faith”).

A venn diagram is the simplest picture of this to me - 2 partially overlapping circles, one faith and the other works. The sweet spot is the area they overlap. What is so sad is that we are so divided when we are actually pointing to the same overlapping space in the diagram.
 
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Exactly. Yes the verses come from our Lord and need to be read more completely than out of context and God does call us to find reference to our faith in his word. Hebrews 4:12.
For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. My understanding is Bible first doctrine second and the amendments created by man are of this world and not Gods. John 8:23.
He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 2 Timothy 3:16. All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, Are these verses Catholic theology?
 
All Catholic theology completely embraces as true each and every Bible verse. Once you stray from the Catholic perspective on various bible verses, you open yourself up to more historically recent human-based interpretations that can lead you further from scripture’s true meaning. I’m SO glad you’re awakening to God and the scriptures in this bible study!! But understand that all too often, non-Catholic people mis-represent what the Catholic Church really teaches, and then attack not the real teachings of the church, but rather their misrepresentation of it. It’s very subtle, and very unfair. It is also most often unintentional - the misinformation is widely propagated in those circles.

Jesus said the Holy Spirit would lead us into all truth, and that he would be with us always. If the Catholic Church fell into error shortly after the time of the apostles, then Jesus must have been mistaken about being with us “always”. I’m being facetious here, but it wasn’t very smart of God to launch Christianity 1500 years before the invention of the printing press. My difficulties with Protestantism are in the implication that real Christianity died for 1000+ years, and then was rediscovered at the reformation. I just can’t see God letting that happen.
 
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Marp said:
All Scripture is breathed out by God
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Yes, all scripture. But not only scripture. You do realize that the scriptures referred to here is mostly the Old Testament, right? The verse before is 2 Timothy 3:15, “and that from infancy you have know (the) sacred scriptures, which are capable of giving you wisdom for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.”When Paul wrote this no books of the New Testament had been placed, by the Catholic Church, in the cannon of scripture and most of the epistles were not even written yet. If anything, the way you are using the passage proves to much, that the scriptures of the New Testament are not necessary for a rule of faith
 
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Is scripture the New Testament? If so what does this mean? 2 Timothy 10-17. You, however, have followed my teaching, my conduct, my aim in life, my faith, my patience, my love, my steadfastness, 11 my persecutions and sufferings that happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, and at Lystra—which persecutions I endured; yet from them all the Lord rescued me. 12 Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13 while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed from who you learned it15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God. Did not God pursue Paul? Was Paul’s life was changed drastically. And why?
 
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