Are sacraments symbols?

[lagerald24]

I would love to agree but the Bible states Revelations 22, 18-19
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. In my heart I hear Catholic Doctrine making amendments in the name of its own righteousness and I fear the Lord.

About the section in Revelations Chapter 22 you mentioned, I don’t see how this proves that the Bible should be our sole authority. In the first century, the works of Scripture were far from being gathered into one single volume like we now have. Thus, the book of Revelation was a single work of literature, not part of the complete Canon of Scripture which had not yet been created. If we were to assume that these two verses prove sola scriptura, then they would actually be proving sola Revelation, since it is not making a claim about the entire Canon of Scripture which was far from being created.

Even if these verses were in fact making a claim about the whole of Scripture, sola scriptura would still be false. These verses only show that no one has the authority to alter the words of the Bible, not that all Christian doctrines must be found in Scripture. Another thing we must consider is Deuteronomy 4:2 which says, “You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it.” Some might argue that these verses in fact disprove the entire New Testament. In reality, we know that they don’t. A living Church, with the authority of Christ, has the ability to decide the Canon of Scripture and is the “pillar and foundation of truth” as we read in 1st Timothy 3:15.

 

[lagerald24]

You, however, have followed my teaching,

This is most definitely seems like a reference both to the oral teachings of Paul and his written teachings. This doesn’t prove sola scriptura because nowhere does it say that Paul’s teachings were restricted only to written letter. See 2nd Thess. 2:15.

and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

The sacred writings mentioned here are not referring to a New Testament book (which wouldn’t exist for a couple hundred more years) but rather are referring to the Old Testament writings which predicted the coming of Christ. In them, the Jewish people would see how Christ has fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies. We Catholics believe that the Word of God is Jesus Christ who delivered to us the Divine Revelation in the fullness of time. That Divine Revelation was not restricted solely to written word but also to spoken word or to Sacred Tradition. Both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition were to be safe-guarded by one, authoritative Church led by Peter and his successors (see Matthew Chapter 16:18-19), guided by the Holy Spirit.

 

[humbleseeker]

Was Paul’s life was changed drastically. And why?

Yes it was but not why, but how did it occur? We are told the first Christians “were perservering in the doctrine of the apostles” (Acts 2:42), the oral teachings that was given long before the New Testament was written.

The Bible itself denies that it is the complete rule of faith. John tells us that not everything concerning Christ’s work is in scripture (Jn 21:25), and Paul says that much Christian teaching is to be found in the tradition that is handed down by word of mouth (2 Tim 2:2). He instructs us to “stand fast, and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle (2 Th 2:15).

 

[lagerald24]

In reading my bible it is as if it comes alive and Christ keeps drawing me near. It is now so that I feel his overwhelming protection. Nothing has brought me so steadfast in love with our lord and savior my life is nothing what it once looked like. Why did this happen to me. I have never before sought God t any pace that resembled the change of me now. Why is his love so Tangible.

Amen to that! Reading the Bible daily has changed my life for sure!

Maybe I am not Catholic because I love my bible so.

You know what, I also love to read the Bible, for it truly is the Word of God. Many people act like Catholics are totally unaware of what the Bible says or are even opposed to it. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I know many Catholics who are deeply in love with Scripture, including myself. I find the Bible truly come alive when read through the perspective of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church which Christ established and which, in fact, gave me the very Bible we now love. I find Scripture in its fullness in the Catholic Church, read in the Tradition of the Early Church. For that, I couldn’t be more grateful.

 

[humbleseeker]

Amen, brother.

 

[Marp]

Thank you I have a Catholic Bible and the verses I think are the same. Does that mean the meanings for the verses vary according to if you are a Catholic believer compared to other believers?

 

[Marp]

God chased Paul, I feel him chasing me. Paul did not come to know Christ through the word or from fellow friends. He was stuck down blinded by the light of the Lord filled with the joy of Christ he continued his pace valiently fighting the opposition to share the good news of how Jesus has died for our sins and has offered us salvation. Does the Catholic Churches Doctrine only include the Catholics as saved or does it make that promise. What is Catholic thought on Paul’s quest to spread his new life and how much more was available when he joined his savior. 7 But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8 What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. 10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.

12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behindand straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

 

[humbleseeker]

Ok, this thread was about sacraments being symbols and I’ve helped highjack it way off topic so I’m going to stop now. Marp, I see you joined three days ago and everyone here will be glad to answer any questions you have, but a new thread needs to be created for each question.

 

[Richca]

Marp:

I know hundreds of Catholics that have recieved the sacraments. There lives do not resemble a new life in Christ. Are they symbols of the works of Christ?

They are symbols that contain what they signify, unlike a street sign that contains a symbol like falling rocks.

The effectiveness of sacramental grace is dependent upon the cooperation of the recipient. If none is not properly disposed, or one does not cooperate with the grace, then the manifestations of it will be negligible.

Yes, in the Baltimore Catechism ‘What is a sacrament?’ Answer: ‘A sacrament is an outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace’. But, as the CCC says, ‘God’s initiative demands man’s free response’ and cooperation.

 

[VeryBlessed]

Most of the time there is no difference in the meaning of a verse regardless of whether it is a Catholic or “non-Catholic” bible. But there are disagreements on the deeper meanings of certain key verses. Like John chapter 6 on the Eucharist, for instance. Both read the same verses but come to different conclusions. For the RC church, communion is both a symbol and the real body & blood of Jesus. For most non-Catholics, communion is only a symbol and NOT his body & blood. The verses are the same; the disagreements come over the deeper meaning and the way those interpretations are implemented.

For me, I think the divisions are unnecessarily large. I don’t think we are nearly as far apart as is claimed. It breaks my heart. OP, the RC church needs believers like you. I rejoice in your reinvigorated faith!

 

[Lucretius]

For those who receive them in faith, the sacraments are the concrete realities of the life, death, and resurrection of Chirst experienced through symbols of these realities.

We actually are at the foot of the Cross during the Mass, and this reality is presented to us through the symbols of the Liturgy.

We actually die to sin in Christ’s Cross and rise again to new life, a life lived for God, in Christ’s resurrection during baptism, and this reality is presented to us through the symbol of water and word.

Whether these realities and their consequences are internalized by us or not depends on how much faith we have. Those who do not believe much cannot benefit from Christ, which we see throughout the gospels, for Christ could do little in his hometown due to their lack of faith.

If those who saw Christ as himself and not under the guise of symbols wouldn’t convert, how much more likely will they convert when they see him only through sacrament and prayer?

 

[Marp]

Acts 2:38-46​

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, John 21:26, 31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. You missed the next line. . I am having a difficult time loosing my place on the thread. But with these 2 verses when you read a little bit more about the passage does the context back up your claims.

 

[Marp]

I am having a difficult time following threads but thank you.

 

[Hope1960]

All jokes aside. I joined a nondenominational bible study 5 years ago and I am puzzled by the peace and joy they share. The Bible seems to be coming alive to me and gestures

This^
…

 

[Roseeurekacross]

NO. for 10

 

[lagerald24]

Hey @Marp, what do you think that these verses show?

 

[powerless]

Don’t confuse signs with symbols, and therefore Sacraments with sacramentals.

Sacraments are signs of God’s power, love, and grace.

Sacramentals are objects or symbols of that power, love, and grace (i.e., water at Baptism, rings at Holy Matrimony, etc.)

 

[jvickers]

Sacramentals are objects or symbols of that power, love, and grace (i.e., water at Baptism, rings at Holy Matrimony, etc.)

This part could be confusing to some. It was to me at first read. The the water (i.e., blessed water - holy water) at Baptism is a sacrament at the Sacrament of Baptism; the rings, sacramentals at the Sacrament of Marriage. Yes?

 

[OraLabora]

No they are not symbols, they are God’s instruments of grace. But one has to be properly disposed for that grace to be efficacious.

Sacramentals, such as holy water, are symbols, such as holy water being a symbol and reminder of our water baptism, which is a sacrament. So they direct us towards sacramental grace, but do not directly confer it.