Are Some People Afraid Of The Latin Mass?

[wolfgang]

I think the Latin Mass is so much more reverent than Mass in English, perhaps because the English is a poorly translated one. I’m 18 and I’ve grown up around NO Mass, but I still prefer the Latin Mass.

The EWTN Mass is a good mixture of English and Latin, and that’s what I like about it (although I prefer everything minus the readings and bidding prayers to be in Latin).

In my opinion, it’s the converts who don’t like the Latin. For the Easter Vigil Mass this year, we sang the Missa de Angelis. You could see, the only ones who weren’t singing along were the converts.

Strange views people have. They think they won’t understand it. If you’ve ever been to Mass, you’ll understand what’s going on and what the priest is saying.

I am a convert and I love the Latin Mass. And, how do you know the ones who weren’t singing were the converts?

:angel1:

 

[surfgirlusa_200]

As yet another convert, I think that I would have perhaps been both in awe and overwhelmed if I had attended a TLM. The OF was different enough for me (coming from a Protestant background), and the format of the Mass itself, prayers, creed, etc took a little getting used to (I remember being excited when we said the Our Father, because it was the only one I had memorized before). That being said, I find it rather strange that in this city (second largest in the state), there is only ONE parish that offers Mass in Latin. I’m not entirely sure whether it is TLM or the OF in Latin, so I shall have to find out for myself. It has been interesting to learn about, in any case. I would like to attend in the future, but am rather concerned about not knowing what to do.

I would also like to say that while some young people may like the EF as some posters have mentioned, many others find even the OF to contain too many rules and doctrines that they personally disagree with, and they find the atmosphere of the EF oppressing. In addition, many people don’t want to put any work into their religion, and they do whatever requires the least amount of work. Just my observations.

 

[damooster]

I’m intimidated by it. I just learned how to participate in the OF Mass without having to look at my missal.

To be honest with you, I’m more intimidated by the people that attend the TLM. I mean no offense by this, but my only interactions with traditionalist are from this message board, and some of you can be quite severe. I understand that you have a preference for the TLM and traditionalists values/teachings, but sometimes the way some of the members attack the NO Mass leaves me feeling that I’d be highly scrutinized should I attend a TLM. I’m worried about my dress (I own no suits, dress business casual for NO Mass), am I being reverent enough, did I receive the Holy Eucharist properly etc. I worry about these things when I attend an NO Mass too, but it just seems like a whole new ball game at the TLM.

I still plan on attending one as soon as I get the courage up to do it. I’ve been reading my 1962 missal in preparation for it.

 

[Candace_Alexis]

Hi All

I cringe when I read some of my past posts. scuse me. Today I wish to announce that I have decided to go ahead and become conversant in Latin. I may have, on a previous post,
told you the story about my daughter who was lost with a friend in a foreign country (Italy). They asked a priest who, they found, did not speak English and they could not speak Italian. However, they did finally discover that the priest and my daughter’s friend did both speak Latin and they were directed in that language. At one time in any country in the world you could converse in the universal language of the Church. Now in this age of Babel our priests here hardly know a pacce tecum (my husband says it is pacce tuum). I am going to do my one person little thing to change this. The priest we know who does perform the Latin mass gets a big kick out of our attempts. Encourage your priest to become educated.

Love

 

[mullenpm]

damooster, please do not allow the rigid and over zealous posters on this forum discourage or frighten you from attending a TLM Mass. I grew up in the 30’s and believe me the Mass in those days was no more reverent and spiritual than our Pauline Mass is today. It is the faulty memories, or even lack of knowledge as to the “way it was” that generally is their problem.

There is no need for you to worry about wearing a suit to the TLM Mass; that is just silly. The purpose of your being at Mass is to adore God; not put on a fashion show for the holier-than-thou people who you think will be watching you. They will answer to a higher power for their attempts to regulate who and how will attend the TLM Mass.

All that is required is Sunday going-to-church clothes and I see no reason why a simple shirt, tie and jacket does not meet that criteria. I do believe women should cover their heads but I believe they should do that when entering a church at any time.

There is no need to practice ahead of time; just go to Mass and relax and take in what the Priest is doing. When you go to Mass, any Mass, focus on why you are there, to adore God and to receive him in the Holy Eucharist.

 

[I_Believe]

I mean no offense by this, but my only interactions with traditionalist are from this message board, and some of you can be quite severe. I understand that you have a preference for the TLM and traditionalists values/teachings, but sometimes the way some of the members attack the NO Mass leaves me feeling that I’d be highly scrutinized should I attend a TLM.

Keep in mind, that a very small percentage of trads post on these forums. Probably less than 1%. I can’t speak for the trad movement, since I’m a Johnny come lately, but I’d suspect that after 40 years of being called “renegade” and “schismatic”, folks tend to bite back.

I’ve been to TLM’s at diocesan parishes, an independent chapel, and a SSPX chapel. No one looked at me like I was a boogey man. And after Mass, in my conversations with folks, not one time did the topics of VII or the NO come up.

Closest thing to it was when I walked into the independent chapel, an usher asked "are you traditional " ? Being the clown I am, I started to answer, “no, I’m (my name)”. But I didn’t. I just answered yes, and he smiled and said welcome.

I wouldn’t hesitate going to the TLM because of this or any other forum.

 

[iona_scribe]

I’m intimidated by it. I just learned how to participate in the OF Mass without having to look at my missal.

To be honest with you, I’m more intimidated by the people that attend the TLM. I mean no offense by this, but my only interactions with traditionalist are from this message board, and some of you can be quite severe. I understand that you have a preference for the TLM and traditionalists values/teachings, but sometimes the way some of the members attack the NO Mass leaves me feeling that I’d be highly scrutinized should I attend a TLM. I’m worried about my dress (I own no suits, dress business casual for NO Mass), am I being reverent enough, did I receive the Holy Eucharist properly etc. I worry about these things when I attend an NO Mass too, but it just seems like a whole new ball game at the TLM.

I still plan on attending one as soon as I get the courage up to do it. I’ve been reading my 1962 missal in preparation for it.

I was also intimidated by the idea of attending a TLM at first after lurking in the Traditional forum. Though in retrospect I can see that the friendly, patient, encouraging people here far outnumber the others. And the odds are even better at an actual TLM since there is no time for debates or noticing your neighbor much, just a beautiful and prayerful Mass. Plus I was pleasantly surprised to find a few acquaintances from my own church there too

You are probably already more prepared than I was when I started going (my husband and I try going once a month). It will make more sense the more you go, and you will eventually get a feel for what to do when. I do hope you go, and then tell us about it

 

[MC_John]

I am a convert and I love the Latin Mass. And, how do you know the ones who weren’t singing were the converts?

I work for the church.

MC_John, how do you know who the converts are at your church? I don’t believe that converts are any more afraid of a Latin Mass than we who were born Catholic.

Same as before. Except you can see them shaking their heads all the way through. The folk Masses are arranged and organised by the converts. As we very rarely have a Latin Mass, I couldn’t comment about their feelings towards it, but when the parts of the Mass are sung in Latin, they’re not happy .

Frankly, MC_John, I would hate the folk Mass with the guitar. I thought that fad had gone the way it should have long ago. There is no reverence to any folk Mass I was forced to attend in the early days after V2 when the church leaders were confused.

I wish it had gone. “These things are sent to try us”.

What makes you think that “new converts” prefer the folk Mass to the Pauline Mass or the TLM Mass? You seem to be separating converts into a class of their own

As before, they organise the folk Mass. It sounds like a busking act or something which belongs at a circus. We don’t have TLM here but there is sometimes a NO Latin Mass when a visiting priest comes.

I prefer the Pauline Mass because I like the Priest to face the congregation.

Agreed.

Anyway, I do like prayers said in Latin as they do on EWTN.

Agreed.

At my parish we have a Mass said in Latin every Sunday at 9:00 a.m. so there is that option for anyone who prefers the Latin.

I wish we did…

 

[Cat]

Cat, our indult EF parish has a congregation of between 200 and 300 on Sunday, pretty much what my cathedral parish sees for 10 am Mass on most Sundays. St. Patrick’s in New Orleans is packed on Sundays for both the EF and the OF (in Latin). St. Patrick’s never stopped having the EF.

Our converts are taken to New Orleans during their mystagogia to experience a full sung Solemn High Mass at St. Patrick’s. (We’ve been doing that since the mid-90s when Latin was restored to the cathedral).

There is a great deal of interest in having an EF at the cathedral. But, when one’s bishop merely issues a one paragraph “acknowledgement” of the Motu Proprio followed by a scathing editiorial by the diocesan chancellor in which he repeats the same shibboleths one can find on this forum (e.g. no one understood what was being said, nobody wants it, etc.)…well, what can one say? I know how to read between the lines.

As I have consistently maintained, yes, there were people who embraced the OF. But there were just as many of us who were happy with the EF. I am not the least bit interested in trying to force the EF on any of you as was done to us forty years ago precisely because it was forced on us.

IMHO, what you are seeing, Cat, is a dialogue that should have taken place forty years ago. Because this dialogue did not take place, those of us who were happy with the EF are looked at with suspicion and often downright contempt today. But as we all know none of us knew what was being said; we all were just yearning for Mass in the vernacular; none of us enjoyed chant or sacred motets which was our heritage; etc, etc, etc.

Sadly, there is a huge element of fear. If there weren’t, there would not be the kinds of comments I read posted all over the threads in this forum.

Thank you for these comments, brotherhrolf. You’ve given me an idea. My husband is a volunteer helper with RCIA in our parish. Our RCIA does all kinds of special activities with the catechumens and candidates (e.g., a visit to the 24 Hour Adoration Chapel).

I’m going to suggest that the class attend one of the TLMs in our city. I think it would be best if this were done with the foreknowledge of the priests of the oratory and also the congregation.

Also, I think it would be excellent if a regular enthusiastic attendee of the TLM were to act as a “guide” for the catechumens and candidates, giving them an explanation beforehand of what they will experience, making sure that all the attendees from RCIA have a missal, and then after the Mass, answering their questions.

Obviously this “guide” would be someone who is not critical (at least among catechumens and candidates and new Catholics) of the OF Mass, and who is personable and friendly and “normal.” (There are some very odd-looking Catholics who attend the TLM–they kind of remind of me the Amish in their appearance and mannerisms.)

I think this would really add to the experience of RCIA, and it would help the catechumens and candidates to have an appreciation of the history and tradition of the Catholic Church, and to know that the TLM is yet another option available to them as they seek to worship Jesus and receive Him in Holy Communion.

OTOH, I know what the objection to my suggestion will be–“The TLM will scare them away from the Catholic Church.”

And yes, I think that’s a legitimate fear for many of the reasons discussed in this thread.

I trust that the RCIA director and the priest in charge of RCIA will discuss this, though, and do what is best for the catechumens and candidates.

 

[Cat]

I can’t speak for cradle Catholics, since I am not one. But I can speak for evangelical Protestants converting to Catholicism, and try to assess their feelings about TLM.

Many evangelicals are interested in TLM because they are sick of the “Worship Lite” approach to “doing church” that many of the evangelical churches, especially the non-denoms, are using.

However, many evangelicals are definitely “afraid” of the TLM for two reasons: 1. Lack of understanding
2. Wariness of “experience-based or needs-based Christianity.”

1. Lack of Understanding

I honestly think that the biggest fear that most evangelical Protestant converts have of the TLM is the lack of understanding.

In the U.S., we like to understand what’s going on. That’s one reason why 24/7 news networks are so popular. People want to be constantly “in the know” about everything (even though many of these news broadcasts dole out sketchy, biased information that actually deprives us of true understanding of various issues).

Computer search engines are another indication that people in the U.S. want to be educated. The doctor tells us, “Your iron is a little low,” and we immediately dash to Google and type in “low iron.” We want to know as much as possible!

Converts like myself who have come out of evangelical churches have been taught all our lives to avoid ignorance, to search the Scriptures, to test everything that we are told.

But when the teaching is in a foreign language that we do not understand, how can we “test it?” All we can do is trust that the priest is truly praying Christian prayers and not something heathen.

But it is a scary thing for many of us to trust others. This is especially true for evangelical converts. Many of us are still reeling psychologically that the Christianity that we believed in all our lives is false, and that many of the teachers and preachers that we listened to and held in high esteem are teaching a false, incomplete version of Christianity. We are quite suspicious of anything and anyone now, and we want to know the FACTS before we get mixed up in it and get on the wrong track.

**Is it any wonder that we have a hard time trusting a priest that we do not know personally, who is speaking in a language that we don’t understand, using a booklet that was written over 40 years ago, and that the people all around us in the pews are not our personal friends and in many cases won’t even nod a greeting to us or speak to us until we are out in the parking lot? ** We were “burned” before by our preachers and teachers, and by gum, we won’t let it happen to us again! We want to make darned sure that this TLM thing is truly of the Lord before we buy into it! We don’t want to get mixed up with a false Christianity again!

BTW, yes, the fact that we don’t know the parishioners personally is a HUGE stumbling block for many evangelical converts. For us, it’s not about how good a “show” you can put on during church. We’ve seen many many people look very holy and raise their hands to heaven and sing with all their strength and pray beautitful prayers–and then a few months later, we learn that that “holy looking” person is involved in some disgusting sinful practice, often sexual.

We have learned to pay no attention to that person in the pew, but rather, to look at their lives OUTSIDE of the Church. So we’re not going to be impressed with the “reverence” of those attending TLM. We want to know what they’re like OUTSIDE the church doors.

And this is hard to do with Catholics–many Catholics engage in practices that evangelicals are still struggling to accept as “non-sinful,” e.g., drinking alcohol and dancing. And as many of you know, many Catholics do co-habit, use ABC, advocate abortion, etc.

So here are my thoughts about how all this can be resolved and the fear due to lack of understanding lessened or eliminated.

Since evangelicals love to study and learn, I would say that the best approach to countering “fear of TLM” is EDUCATION. Through print media, radio and TV, and of course, online, I think that those who advocate the TLM can do a good job of educating Catholics about the TLM and convincing them that there is nothing to fear.

Secondly, I think that Catholics have to reach outside of their comfort zone and get to know evangelical converts. This can easily be done in the business settings. Most advocates of TLM work somewhere. They should make sure to befriend any evangelical Christians in the workplace. Let that evangelical see their lives, that they are pure and holy outside the Church. Then when the evangelical converts, they’ll already know that Catholics can be trusted.

I’m not sure if it is appropriate for TLM people to practice a friendly outreach immediately before or after Mass. But surely there are ways that they can continue to be reverent and silent during Mass, but friendly and outgoing BEFORE or AFTER Mass. This will really help any evangelical converts to feel comfortable with Catholics and learn to trust them.

continued next post–sorry!

 

[Cat]

continued from previous post

**2. Wariness of “experience-based or needs-based Christianity” **

I’ve said it before on these boards and gotten blasted for it. Perhaps you simply have to come from an evangelical background to understand what I am saying here.

To evangelical Protestant converts, the TLM smacks of an “emotional experience,” and this scares them.

Much of the language used by TLM advocates supports this. Many of the TLM attendees claim that they “feel” more reverent. They “feel” more connected to Jesus. They “feel” that it is more correct for the priest to face away from the congregation.

Feelings. Whoa oh-oh, feeeelings! :harp:.

And THIS emphasis on emotion will send many evangelical Protestants running in the opposite direction.

Yes, there are evangelical churches, especially the charismatic churches, in which emotions run high, and one exciting worship experience follows another experience.

And yes, many of the evangelical churches features driving rock music played by professional musicians. BUT…keep in mind that when you hear it week after week, year after year, rock music is no more emotional to the listener than Gregorian chant is to the Catholic. It’s just music to many people. It’s what is played until it’s time for the sermon, which is the Main Event at any evangelical worship service. The music is the activity that gives you time to get your kids down to the nursery. It’s just the “warm up.” There is no emotion in rock music for many Protestants (which is one reason why so many of us are surprised when Catholics get so upset about rock music in the Mass–to evangelicals, it’s just music, no big deal.)

Many (not all) evangelical Protestants have learned, to their dismay, that feelings are fleeting. They have discovered that eventually the feeling fades, and then you will seek a still more stimulating “experience” to get that feeling back again, and eventually, you’ll be attending cowboy churches, ethnic churches, alternative worship services, emergent churches–in fact, I’m guessing that one reason why we are seeing more evangelicals visiting Catholic churches is that they are seeking yet another “experience” of Christianity!

Many evangelicals have been taught the “Fact-Faith-Feeling” Train analogy. Facts are the engine that pulls the train. Faith is the coal car, and feelings are just the caboose–not really necessary to pull the train along.

So when evangelicals hear TLM advocates rave about their “feelings” attending a TLM, they are suspicious that this TLM thing is just another “experience,” no difference, really, from the Life Teen “experience.”

And so they avoid it. They don’t want to get trapped in the caboose again.

Feelings are related to “needs,” and many evangelicals have come out of a background of “needs-based Christianity.” They’ve been in churches that offered everything from a fitness center to a coffee shop (most of the churches in my city now have a coffee shop) to a day-care center to a Senior Citizens Dinner Group…whatever people need, the church will provide.

And it seems, from the language that is often used by TLM advocates, that they NEED TLM to “feel” totally “Christian.” Yechh. This kind of language upsets me even now. Sorry, everyone.

You see, it’s the language. The “feelings” and “needs” language frightens evangelical converts away.

So my suggestion is for those who prefer the TLM to assiduously AVOID any mention, at least among evangelical converts, of personal “feelings” or “needs” when it comes to Mass.

Discuss the history and the tradition. Discuss the solidity of the homily, the correctness of the prayers, the depth of the music, the Biblicalness of the postures, etc. Try to separate your feelings and needs from a discussion of the TLM, at least around converts.

Above all else, make SURE that the TLM is not something that they “need” to “experience” to “truly understand Catholicism.” To an evangelical Protestant, this makes no sense. To the evangelical convert, to truly understand Catholicism, you need to study, not emote.

I hope some of this is helpful.

 

[Cat]

Even though it’s a little OT, I’d like to expand upon something that I said in the post above concerning rock music.

Many Catholics who attend a modern evangelical worship service see rock music, swaying, clapping, closed-eyes, a little dancing, etc.

Often they assume that there is a lot of “emotion” associated with this, and yes, sometimes there is.

But for many evangelicals, these physical postures and gestures are not emotional at all. They’re just “what you do.” They’re the “liturgy” of the Protestant worship service.

And frankly, for many of the evangelicals, the rock music and physical response is totally un-emotional. They aren’t even thinking about it. They’re just doing what everyone does.

When you, as a Catholic kneel for the various portions of the liturgy when kneeling is required, do YOU get emotional? (Some do, I know.) Not really.

Do you get emotional when it’s time to sing the Gloria or any of the other congregational responses?

If you are a TLM attender, do you get emotional when you kneel to receive Holy Communion?

Do you get emotional when you make the Sign of the Cross?

For the most part, most Catholics do not get emotional when they “do” these physical actions. It’s just what they’ve done all their lives. Occasionally they have a “moment of enlightenment” in which they become aware of the significance of their action, and then sometimes there will be emotion.

But not usually.

And this is the same way Protestants are about their rock music. Yes, certainly some people in the congregation are truly emotional. But most of the people are just doing what they’ve always done. It’s not an emotional high or a “happy-clappy” experience at all. It’s just their liturgy.

Yes, of course they enjoy it, just as Catholics enjoy their liturgy.

I hope this helps you to understand the evangelical mindset a little better and rid yourself of some of the false ideas you might have about evangelical worship services.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Cat, no one is asking you to attend a TLM. No one is suggesting that we drop back to 1965 and revert back to the way it was. Please don’t take this askance but your fear is almost palpable.

I grew up in a mixed marriage. My father was evangelical Protestant and did not begin attending Mass with us until 1970. Yet, it was my father who woke me and drove me to 6am Mass on a school day.

I sang in our cathedral choir for 20 years. The first 10 years we were barred from singing in Latin. Our hymnal was the 1940 Episcopalian hymnal. In 1992, the Cardinal Archbishop of Lyon, France along with the Archbishop of Salamanca, Sapin and an episcopal cast of thousands came to my cathedral to celebrate our 200th anniversary.

The good Cardinal departed from the script and gave the Apostolic Blessing in chanted Latin. There were five of us in a thirty member choir and a few more amongst the assembled diocesan priests who were able to respond. Emotion? You betcha’. Hadn’t chanted that since I was a kid. And it was a profound embarrassment to the diocese…

That one incident brought full force that Latin is our common patrimony. Nine months later we abandoned the 1940 hymnal and went back to chant in Latin. I cried on Holy Thursday sining Pange Lingua instead of “Sing my tongue the Saviour’s glory”.

I grew up with Gregorian chant. I grew up with the Missa Cantata (or dialogue Mass) before Vatican II. Pretty much everything we sing today at Mass we sang in Latin (er, Greek too) back when I was a kid. Entrance hymn (English), Kyrie, Gloria, Creed, Offertory hymn, Sanctus, Pater Noster, Agnus Dei, Communion hymn, Recessional. Sound familiar?

I wish I had a nickle for every time I hear that old shibboleth that we didn’t know what we were saying, didn’t know the Mass, etc., etc., etc., because it was in Latin and not the vernacular. I’d be a wealthy man.

We had missals, Cat. You and I could go to a TLM and within a year you would understand. I would assist you the same way my mother assisted me. Latin on one side and English on the other. Rubrics in red. I can see my mother’s finger pointing out words. Gloria (glory)…confiteor (confess)…pater (father)…corpus (corpse or body). Cognates all over the place. Shakespeare and his colleagues introduced many Latin words into English during the Renaissance. You know a lot more Latin than you think.

I get a real big kick out of Bill O’Reilly with his vocabulary lesson each night. We did that from 8th grade on. The sheer number of English words that have their roots in Latin is amazing. I can’t speak Latin but I sure can parse out at least some of what is meant.

In all humility and honesty…yes, Cat, I do get emotional when I am able to receive Our Lord kneeling. The choir practiced on Wednesday. On Ash Wednesday, St. Agnes (our local indult parish) held a Mass at 5:30 which I was able to go to. Once a year I got to kneel and they used the same verbiage I heard since I was a kid “Remember man that thou art dust and to dust thou shall return” to distribute ashes.

This thread is not about converts and their problems with the TLM. Cat, you provide valuable (name removed by moderator)ut but you force me to bite my tongue lest I say something uncharitable. My faith journey is different than yours. I am a cradle Catholic. I grew up and went to Catholic school before Vatican II and submitted to the magesterium after Vatican II. I was happy with HMC before Vatican II and saw my mother and my Catholic neighbors reduced to second class citizens at the Vigil Mass after Vatican II because they did not want the rock music, the hand waving, the running around at the sign of peace, etc. I’ve driven 25 miles (one way to Mass) for 26 years to avoid the same thing.

Bottom line for me - forty plus years ago any Catholic could go anyplace in the world and attend Mass and know what was going on. Latin was a unifying force. We all did the same things, the same way. This summer I will see French tourists on the Mississippi cruise boats. They will stand during the Consecration and generally look baffled otherwise. The majority of us have some French ancestry but don’t speak French. Forty years ago, those same French toursists would have been able to participate at Mass. Something to think about, I do believe.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

Opinions ?

                           My own observance has been that alot of people believe we can never fully return to it.

Isn’t it quite a peculiar proposition that a religion should use a dead language virtually no one understands anymore in its worship ceremonies?

What if someone proposed Mass in Aramaic or Koine Greek? How strange would that sound!

While it might be appealing for a very small number of very conservative Catholics … it would really toss the protestants a bone (who would no doubt use it as a tool & probably successfully convert all but the most committed Catholics).

To include some ancient Latin in hymns or certain select chants or passages might not be a bad idea (but I think some churches already do that). Gregorian chants in Latin are always really cool. Aside from the fact I’m a non-believer in religion … I still think Catholic liturgy can be soothing; maybe even a “little” Latin to make things interesting and add a little diversity (of course I studied law, so I do know some Latin … though I’m far from fluent since Latin is no longer a hard requirement for your JD).

 

[malphono]

Isn’t it quite a peculiar proposition that a religion should use a dead language virtually no one understands anymore in its worship ceremonies?

What if someone proposed Mass in Aramaic or Koine Greek? How strange would that sound!

Not particularly strange at all, at least not in the Eastern and Oriental Churches. Yes, it’s true: those languages, along with Coptic, Ge’ez, Old Slavonic, etc, are still in use. Oh, my … what a horror.

While it might be appealing for a very small number of very conservative Catholics … it would really toss the protestants a bone (who would no doubt use it as a tool & probably successfully convert all but the most committed Catholics).

It’s more than a “small number” and it’s not limited to those on the ultra-right wing either. The remark about the Protestants doesn’t rate a comment. It can’t be serious.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Isn’t it quite a peculiar proposition that a religion should use a dead language virtually no one understands anymore in its worship ceremonies?

What if someone proposed Mass in Aramaic or Koine Greek? How strange would that sound!

While it might be appealing for a very small number of very conservative Catholics … it would really toss the protestants a bone (who would no doubt use it as a tool & probably successfully convert all but the most committed Catholics).

To include some ancient Latin in hymns or certain select chants or passages might not be a bad idea (but I think some churches already do that). Gregorian chants in Latin are always really cool. Aside from the fact I’m a non-believer in religion … I still think Catholic liturgy can be soothing; maybe even a “little” Latin to make things interesting and add a little diversity (of course I studied law, so I do know some Latin … though I’m far from fluent since Latin is no longer a hard requirement for your JD).

I am going to answer this from the point of being a historian and and anthropologist.

I dispute your assertion that there is a very small number of very conservative Catholics on two fronts. First and foremost, I grew up with Latin. I’m not dead yet…not by a long shot. I may be middle aged (57) but I grew up before Vatican II, was an altar boy, and went to Catholic schools from 1956 through 1969. It was never a requirement to be fluent in Latin way back when.

Second, I go to my Catholic boy’s high school 40th reunion next weekend. Frank and his podnah’s still do the guitar routine; still sing for alumni functions, etc. I’m not dead. I’m feeling better…and I sing Latin chant and sacred motets in my cathedral choir. I’ve sung in Spanish, Vietnamese, German, French…

We don’t need the guitars and the vernacular.

 

[cowboytogo]

Yes and No. There are people who have a complete aversion towards it for their own reasons. Then there are a lot of people who don’t have much thought about it at all. If asked about it, some (people of my generation and younger) have no clue what a Latin mass is and that mass was said in Latin for centuries. Sometimes they’ll think it sounds really “cool” when you explain it to them and are a bit more open to attending one.

Others who are old enough to remember the Latin mass will say that they prefer it in the vernacular because they have a better understanding of what’s going on at mass, although they don’t mind having a Latin mass at their parish. Then there are others, when mentioning the words “Latin Mass”, they make grimaces and say things like it was the mass for people in the “dark ages” and kind of get vocally violent about their dislike for it. Others would be afraid that people wouldn’t know what was going on at mass.

A few others are afraid it may bring back practices that made them leave the Church originally before coming back, or remind them of the nuns that used to beat and humiliate them and their classmates in school. I usually hear about this from baby boomers. The generation before that usually had nice things to say about the sisters with the exception of a couple bad apples. Not sure why that is.

Anyway, these are all things I’ve heard from Catholics I know or met. I’m sure there are different reasons from others.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

Frankly I wouldn’t be bothered if the mass were said in Latin (but I’m probably not your target market either ).

Perhaps “dead language” was an overstatement … but come on folks it’s hardly anyone’s vernacular these days? Moreover, perhaps less than 5% of people in the western world can understand ancient Latin well enough to digest a Latin mass with any degree of accuracy. I never did a study on the percentage of people who know Latin … but if I were a betting man I’d be willing to bet I’m not too far off base here (in fact 5% is probably a gross exaggeration).

With regard to my earlier statement regarding conservative or committed Catholics, that does come from statistics I commonly hear cited. It’s generally said that only around a quarter to a third of people who identify themselves as Catholic can be considered an observant or conservative Catholic by any reasonable standard. So yes I do think that shifting back to a Latin Mass could be harmful to the church (at least here in America where protestantism is aggressively nipping at your heels).

Notwithstanding the fact the majority of Catholics don’t attend Mass regularly and don’t believe in many Catholic doctrines (such as the churches stance on abortion) they do support the church in many ways. Some tithe, others send their kids to Catholic schools and colleges, many prefer to use a Catholic health care provider, etc. and let’s face it priests have to eat & churches have to pay the light bill. Finances is a fair and logical consideration for any organization (especially if they plan on staying around for a while).

This is really all I’m saying (and for goodness sake I’d really hate to see fundamental protestants gain any more power than they already have).

 

[cowboytogo]

I grew up in the old church you speak of. Yes, I have some bad memories being taught by the Sisters of Charity of Nazareth at Most Blessed Sacrament in Louisville, Ky. I was a boy who, unknown at the time, was dyslexic. My problems were especially in Math. The nuns did not make it easy for me. If you had difficulties in a subject then you were subject to ridicule. For years it left me bitter towards my Catholic upbringing. I did not know I had problems with Math until I had myself tested while I was a senior in college. What a relief it was to finally know that it was not my fault. Now, that I am in my 50’s I am alble to put all the bad feelings behind me and move on. I cannot change the past. However, I still have fond memories for the Latin Mass. In my day we had to recite all the prayers e.g. the Apostles Creed, the Confeditor etc. Now, I am attending a FSSP run church, and I love it. It makes me proud once again to be a Catholic. I believe Catholics stood out before Vatican two. We had our pomp and circumstance. The whole Mass was grand, music and all.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

I grew up in the old church you speak of. Yes, I have some bad memories being taught by the Sisters of Charity of Nazareth at Most Blessed Sacrament in Louisville, Ky. I was a boy who, unknown at the time, was dyslexic. My problems were especially in Math. The nuns did not make it easy for me. If you had difficulties in a subject then you were subject to ridicule. For years it left me bitter towards my Catholic upbringing. I did not know I had problems with Math until I had myself tested while I was a senior in college. What a relief it was to finally know that it was not my fault. Now, that I am in my 50’s I am alble to put all the bad feelings behind me and move on. I cannot change the past. However, I still have fond memories for the Latin Mass. In my day we had to recite all the prayers e.g. the Apostles Creed, the Confeditor etc. Now, I am attending a FSSP run church, and I love it. It makes me proud once again to be a Catholic. I believe Catholics stood out before Vatican two. We had our pomp and circumstance. The whole Mass was grand, music and all.

Obviously I’m younger than many posters in this thread & have never heard an entire Latin mass in my life. However, like anything else once change sets in it’s nearly impossible to go back. I assume you folks are all Americans (or perhaps a few Canadians). You guys should know as well as I do that virtually no one understands Latin these days.

If the CC went back on the Latin mass I’m afraid protestants will have a field day. And not the cool protestants either (who by and large aren’t chasing Catholics) … but the nutty types who like to wrap snakes around their necks (and their kids necks as well, which should be illegal darn it).