Are some people born "damned?"

[JaneGrey]

Don’t worry about them, God will decide for himself. He knows more about them and their situation than you do.

Thats good to know. I dont know that I was worried about them, I was just thinking about their place in society and whether others can ever be truly safe from them.

 

[LauraDymphna]

I think the answer to this is we are all “predestined” for the kingdom. Some choose damnation some choose salvation. The idea of being destined for one or the other comes from Calvinism, (well I think its really of some pagan origin) in that no one really has a choice at all.

 

[Miriam1947]

I know there is invincible ignorance. So those who do not yet know salvation through Jesus and his Church still can go to Heaven because the moral good is written on every human heart.

What about jihadists? What about that 19 year old Muslim man in Portland who wanted to blow up all those people at the community lighting of the Christmas tree? Do you think any of them have not gone to Hell? They believe that Allah wants them to kill in his name and that they will go to paradise when they die, especially if they die killing the infidels.

 

[JDaniel]

Sometimes it is impossible to know to what extent we have faith because faith is not merely intellectual assent but following the example of Our Lord. It is not what we profess to believe but how we live that counts. Many “non-believers” will reach heaven before hypocritical “believers”. If we love others we have nothing to fear…

TonyRey:

Your last line seems to be the crux of it. Mathew 25 seems to be telling us that whatever we do to and for the least of Christ’s children, you do likewise unto Him. This may be the single most important commandment, to love one another as He loves us.

If you think about it, what Christ is saying here is that without Charity, including the active works of Charity, one may find himself locked out. Charity = Love. This what Advent is about, according to Fr. Michael Himes. Of course, all of the rest of the Commandments must be kept as well, but, even if they are and this one is not kept, He will lock the doors on us.

In Europe, most Churches, especially the older ones, have the depictions of the sheep and the goats over their main doors. I think the goats are on the right, the side the parishioners enter the Church though, and they come out lambs. A very interesting allegory, indeed, don’t you think?

God bless,
jd

 

[4Horsemen]

Scripture tells us that many are called, but few are chosen. So what does that mean in line with this discussion? Do you think it means that only a few are saved?

 

[The_Exodus]

Scripture tells us that many are called, but few are chosen. So what does that mean in line with this discussion? Do you think it means that only a few are saved?

Many are called, but few are chosen only implies that less are chosen than are called. It is not a statement of objective reality (more are lost than saved), but a relative one (more are called than chosen.) 100 people could be called, and 90 chosen, and it would still be true that more were called than chosen.

No one knows the number of the saved and lost, whether there be more saved or more lost. Any verse we cite or any father we quote would amount to nothing more than sheer speculation.

 

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by 4Horsemen
Scripture tells us that many are called, but few are chosen. So what does that mean in line with this discussion? Do you think it means that only a few are saved?

Exodus,
I must disagree with you here, “many” and “few” indicate an entirely different percentage than 90/100. If your view holds, then the passage should properly read, “many are called and most ar chosen”… but that is not what it says. Few, indicated that the ratio must be, at best, less than 50/100. This is a fundemental understanding of the the terms “few” and “most”
As further evidence for this I offer additional passages from Christ’s own lips.
Mt 7:
13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

Luke 13:
23 And some one said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, 24 "Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

Path to destruction = “Wide”, those how choose it = “Many”
Path to Life = “Narrow”. Those who find it = “Few”

It is a sad reality that we must, none-the-less, face. By Christ’s own words, a majority, possibly even a large majority, of the human population will not make it to heaven.
Therefore he tells us to “strive” to enter the narrow door.

Peace
James

 

[The_Exodus]

Exodus,
I must disagree with you here, “many” and “few” indicate an entirely different percentage than 90/100. If your view holds, then the passage should properly read, “many are called and most ar chosen”… but that is not what it says. Few, indicated that the ratio must be, at best, less than 50/100. This is a fundemental understanding of the the terms “few” and “most”
As further evidence for this I offer additional passages from Christ’s own lips.
Mt 7:
13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

Luke 13:
23 And some one said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, 24 "Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

Path to destruction = “Wide”, those how choose it = “Many”
Path to Life = “Narrow”. Those who find it = “Few”

It is a sad reality that we must, none-the-less, face. By Christ’s own words, a majority, possibly even a large majority, of the human population will not make it to heaven.
Therefore he tells us to “strive” to enter the narrow door.

Peace
James

JRK,

Thanks for your reply. I must say, however, that the great Doctors of the Church have all professed that the number of the elect verse reprobate is a mystery, and say that we should"seek not to know that number, unless we wish to err."

And Christ’s words, when he responds to the question, do not definitively mean that “more will be lost than be saved.” Speaking of the number in total, “many” could denote 49%, or 40%, or even less, and that would still be a very large number. And who doubts that the path to life is narrow, and the path to destruction wide? They certainly are.

There is, in my view, no clear Scriptural teaching that says “more will be lost than saved,” though that may very well be the case. There was a good article I read somewhere – I thought Newadvent – which I can’t seem to find, unfortunately.

Peace to you as well.

 

[Sonny1954]

*Is it possible that some people are born damned, and inherently incapable of being "saved

God creates people that he KNOWS from the beginning are going to be damned, and that, it seems to me, is the more important issue.*

 

[4Horsemen]

Sometimes it is impossible to know to what extent we have faith because faith is not merely intellectual assent but following the example of Our Lord. It is not what we profess to believe but how we live

that counts.** Many “non-believers” will reach heaven before hypocritical “believers”. If we love others we have nothing to fear… /**QUOTE]

Although the words of a saint are not Scriptural, we should be open to their revelations. I believe it was St. Teresa of Avila who said that in a vision she saw souls falling like autumn leaves into Hell. Of course that doesn’t mean that more souls didn’t fall into Hell.

The sentence in bold presents a curious problem. St. John tells us "But as many as received him to them gave he power to become the sons of God even to them that believe in his name.’ (Jn. 1:12-13) (The translation is rather awkward: KJ) So it would seem that non-believers do not enter the kingdom of God, if they reject Jesus’ sacrifice or have more cares for worldly things than spiritual. I can understand that there may be people in the world who have no idea who Jesus is and God judges accordingly with His Divine Mercy.

We can “love others” if we first love God. “You are my friends if you keep my commandments.” There are many, many examples of Christ’s words concerning salvation. The Last Supper discourse has many references.

 

[JRKH]

JRK,

Thanks for your reply. I must say, however, that the great Doctors of the Church have all professed that the number of the elect verse reprobate is a mystery, and say that we should"seek not to know that number, unless we wish to err."

I agree and I do not try to “know the number”. This is one of those things that really is an “acedemic” discussion. It matters littel to our own walk in faith and everything we say is speculation.

And Christ’s words, when he responds to the question, do not definitively mean that “more will be lost than be saved.” Speaking of the number in total, “many” could denote 49%, or 40%, or even less, and that would still be a very large number. And who doubts that the path to life is narrow, and the path to destruction wide? They certainly are.

There is, in my view, no clear Scriptural teaching that says “more will be lost than saved,” though that may very well be the case. There was a good article I read somewhere – I thought Newadvent – which I can’t seem to find, unfortunately.

Peace to you as well.

And in my view the passages I quoted are pretty clear that “few” will make it.

If nothing else, this view should prevent us from “resting on our keesters”. Pndering on this should should prompt us ALL to seek greater faith, greater understanding and impel us to greater holiness in our hearts and in our actions.

Something else that should be considered in this is what many and few mean in the timeless eternity of all ages and all peoples who ever lived. It could be that different ages will have greater or fewer percentages saved. So - of those living 200 years ago 60% might be saved, while those living 200 years from now only 20% are saved; 3000 years ago 10% and 1000 years ago 40%. You see what I mean? The “Few” might not be proportionately distributed across all ages and times.
Just another thought to consider in all of this speculation.

Peace
James

 

[tonyrey]

             *Sometimes it is impossible to know to what extent we have faith because faith is not merely intellectual assent but following the example of Our Lord. It is not what we profess to believe but **how we live*** that counts.** Many "non-believers" will reach heaven before hypocritical "believers". If we love others we have nothing to fear... /**QUOTE]
                             Although the words of a saint are not Scriptural, we should be open to their revelations. I believe it was St. Teresa of Avila who said that in a vision she saw souls falling like autumn leaves into Hell. Of course that doesn't mean that more souls didn't fall into Hell.

St Teresa is a great saint but that does not mean she knew how many go to hell. (I prefer “go” because “fall” suggests an accident rather than a deliberate decision.)

The sentence in bold presents a curious problem. St. John tells us "But as many as received him to them gave he power to become the sons of God even to them that believe in his name.’ (Jn. 1:12-13) (The translation is rather awkward: KJ) So it would seem that non-believers do not enter the kingdom of God, if they reject Jesus’ sacrifice or have more cares for worldly things than spiritual. I can understand that there may be people in the world who have no idea who Jesus is and God judges accordingly with His Divine Mercy.

“believe” means primarily the practice of faith. Words are not enough, as Jesus pointed out. Those who live according to His teaching go to heaven even if they aren’t Christians.

 

[mgreen77]

God creates people that he KNOWS from the beginning are going to be damned, and that, it seems to me, is the more important issue.

But does he create people who they themselves know if they’re going to be saved or damned, like deep down in their heart of hearts?

I saw an odd movie years ago called, “The Rapture” which has always haunted me. It was about (SPOILER ALERT!) a sinful woman who didn’t believe, later came to believe, and yet even with The Rapture literally happening before her eyes, she STILL couldn’t or wouldn’t accept God.

And if you look back over the movie, you kinda get the idea she always knew how she felt, knew what she would do.

 

[JRKH]

But does he create people who they themselves know if they’re going to be saved or damned, like deep down in their heart of hearts?

I saw an odd movie years ago called, “The Rapture” which has always haunted me. It was about (SPOILER ALERT!) a sinful woman who didn’t believe, later came to believe, and yet even with The Rapture literally happening before her eyes, she STILL couldn’t or wouldn’t accept God.

And if you look back over the movie, you kinda get the idea she always knew how she felt, knew what she would do.

If we were to ask someone what they would do in some dire situation like a house on fire and a small child crying from a window, or someone breaking in and threatening their family - things like that, they might say that they would rush in and save the day, or they might say they don’t know how they would act, or they might say they would cower in the corner. etc.
What we say in the calm may or may not be how we react in a given situation. Faith, and our belief, is often like this. We cannot know for absolutely sure. We believe, we hope, we have faith, but in the end, who knows what the verdict will be.

The best we can do is strive. To Live, believe, have faith and hope. But most important to Live in Love of God and neighbor. The rest we leave to God.

Peace
James

 

[4Horsemen]

St Teresa is a great saint but that does not mean she knew how many go to hell. (I prefer “go” because “fall” suggests an accident rather than a deliberate decision.)

The word “fall” is St. Teresa’s metaphor, but I see your point that it suggests “accident” rather than a “deliberate decision.” Here’s where I’m confused though. We know that people die in many ways and at unexpected times in their lives. Some people have a grace period in which they can repent. Others seem to die quickly or even violently or in natural disasters in which they have little or no time to repent. (At least it appears that way). So you’re saying that anyone who goes to Hell makes a “deliberate decision” to do so, or at least, to not accept the sufficient grace God had been giving all their lives.

God says in Scripture to be cold or hot, not lukewarm or He will spew you out of His mouth. So what about the person who misses Mass, doesn’t go to the sacrament of Penance and lives a self-centered life until he dies unexpectedly? I suppose the answer is that God gives a window (maybe a nanosecond) of opportunity to choose.

I know so many people who fall into this category, including Catholics. Most people in my acquaintance do not have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. They live for themselves although they may toss a few dollars into the basket for the Church and the poor on occasion when they go. I know it’s God’s business to draw us to him and receive the gift of salvation, but some people, although they’d never say they are non-believers don’t express any belief. Atheists are a different story.

My point is that all who are saved must make a deliberate decision to be saved. People don’t usually make a deliberate decision to go to Hell.

“believe” means primarily the practice of faith. Words are not enough, as Jesus pointed out. Those who live according to His teaching go to heaven even if they aren’t Christians.

I agree with that. However, in this day and age, almost the whole world knows about Jesus and Christianity. Those who are true followers of Christ, they will act on their belief. Those who know about Christ and His teachings, but ignore them or are too busy for them will probably not be saved.

 

[DavidKays]

Hi! A person cannot be born " damned ". If every baby borned right now suddenly died they will all enter Heaven or eventually Heaven. Everyone is called into salvation but not everyone chooses it. In the truest sense only God will know of your eternal salvation or eternal damnation. Look for instance at Judas. Although Jesus calls him a devil and a traitor He does this not to condemn Judas but to warn Judas. In every instance Jesus tries to help Judas. He even warns him beforehand so that Judas can be given the opportunity to change. It is not the betrayal the condemns Judas but it is what Judas does after his betrayal that condemns him. For Jesus can forgive any sin but when Judas is lead to despair he then kills himself. While suicide is not the ultimate rejection for others yet for Judas it was. Suicide among the mentally ill and also in many other cases is better understood today so the Church does not see it as the ultimate sin. God was concern for His Apostle and tried to warn him many times. The warning was rejected and Judas decides to give Jesus over to the authorities. Probably Judas wanted Jesus to be exposed and so reveal Himself to the Pharisees as Judas saw Jesus do with many other peoples. However the Lord will not give into Judas demands and decided not to be exposed and not play into the bluff of His Apostle. To his amazement Judas could not understand why Jesus was willing to die. When Jesus did not play into Judas hand or bluff, the apostle went away scared and frightened and that is when the devil conjured the apostle into despair and Judas then hanged himself. Judas did not want Jesus to die. If he did why then did he kill himself ? It will make more sense that Judas wanted to exposed Jesus. But Jesus did not want to play that way and that is when Judas was startled to see Jesus willingly to die. Was Judas born damned? Of course not. Yet we see what happened to him. And we can see Jesus trying so hard to save him. No one deserves condemnation because God loves everyone. However consequences to their decisions may lead people to total seperation from God and therefore reluctantly to their condemnation. God does not desire their condemnation. For eternity God will have a great sorrow over His lost ones and only He can know how much painful it will always be. God will always grieve over His lost children.

 

[mgreen77]

We believe, we hope, we have faith, but in the end, who knows what the verdict will be.

Well, God knows, yes?

I can’t help but think if God knows everything, than He already knows the fate of a soul when He creates it, so He’s actually (sometimes) intentionally creating a soul who won’t be saved.

We’d have the sensation of “free will” since we don’t know everything, but if God knew I wouldn’t be saved when He created me, then I can’t “surprise” God by making a choice He didn’t expect. My fate was already written, and was already in place before I was born.

If my “free will” could surprise God, then yes… I’m capable of making a choice to be saved. But if not, if He created my soul knowing it wouldn’t be saved, isn’t that being born “damned?”

 

[JRKH]

Well, God knows, yes?

I can’t help but think if God knows everything, than He already knows the fate of a soul when He creates it, so He’s actually (sometimes) intentionally creating a soul who won’t be saved.

We’d have the sensation of “free will” since we don’t know everything, but if God knew I wouldn’t be saved when He created me, then I can’t “surprise” God by making a choice He didn’t expect. My fate was already written, and was already in place before I was born.

If my “free will” could surprise God, then yes… I’m capable of making a choice to be saved. But if not, if He created my soul knowing it wouldn’t be saved, isn’t that being born “damned?”

These discussions can be, and often are, carried to rediculous levels of…“yea but…” arguments.

For instance, what you say above can be seen as true if one limits ones self to a strict linear timeline. However consider this other possiblility.
Suppose a parent gives a child three choices in some matter or other. The Parent knows, or can fairly predict, by experience, what the results of each choice will be. The Child retains his “free will” to choose, and the parent retains his knowledge of the outcome of each choice.
Now expand this to an infinite number of choices by an infinite number of people with God knwoing the outcome of each choice by each individual. The outcome that God “knows” is dependant on the choice of the individual (who does not know).
Thus the Choice determines the outcome and not some predetermied destiny.

Of course you can then respond by saying th atGod also knows what choice the individual will make and so the cycle of - “he knows what he knows what he knows…” continues.

While not precisely in line with this thread’s question, I started another thread HERE that proposes a possible “line of thought” for why God set things up as He did.

Peace
James

 

[mgreen77]

Now expand this to an infinite number of choices by an infinite number of people with God knwoing the outcome of each choice by each individual. The outcome that God “knows” is dependant on the choice of the individual (who does not know)…

Thank you! I love it when someone can show me a way of thinking I hadn’t thought of before. I really, REALLY hate boxes

And I’m not much of a fan of “linear timelines” either. Or at least I won’t be, lol

 

[roelblomsma]

Is it possible that some people are born damned, and inherently incapable of being “saved?”

Or that some people don’t have souls to save (as with animals), or even that their souls are “tainted” in some way so that they can’t form a bond or covenant with God?

No…I do think some people have to go through more challenges to get to God. If you are born in a Taliban family, you’re probably not going to choose Jesus as your saviour.

On the other hand. Jesus did tell us about the parabol of the rotten tree and rotten fruits. (I’m not sure about the exact words, but you know what I mean). So parents who are bad will probably have bad children.