Are some people born "damned?"

[davidv]

Well, God knows, yes?

I can’t help but think if God knows everything, than He already knows the fate of a soul when He creates it, so He’s actually (sometimes) intentionally creating a soul who won’t be saved.

We’d have the sensation of “free will” since we don’t know everything, but if God knew I wouldn’t be saved when He created me, then I can’t “surprise” God by making a choice He didn’t expect. My fate was already written, and was already in place before I was born.

If my “free will” could surprise God, then yes… I’m capable of making a choice to be saved. But if not, if He created my soul knowing it wouldn’t be saved, isn’t that being born “damned?”

A major problem with this is God doesn’t have a ‘before’. All is enternity present to Him now. All that God knows is immediately present. There is no before and after for God.

So, no you are not born damned. You could have chosen otherwise.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

To be honest, I worry that for myself.

I asked partly because a christian friend of mine once told me his Faith (not sure which denomination now) believed people were born either saved or damned, and no amount of bad deeds could “lose” a saved person, and no amount of good works could redeem a damned person. And that a damned person couldn’t accept God. They may try, they may SAY it, but in their heart never would.

I worry about myself. Selfish I know, but I do. I seem to have this block, this wall I can’t seem to get around no matter what my intentions or hopes. I’m obsessive about not lying, so I’m stuck in a circle… I can’t say something I don’t believe, but I can’t start believing it until I say it. Does that make any sense to anyone?

Why do you suspect that you might be damned?

 

[4Horsemen]

Hi! A person cannot be born " damned ". If every baby borned right now suddenly died they will all enter Heaven or eventually Heaven. Everyone is called into salvation but not everyone chooses it. In the truest sense only God will know of your eternal salvation or eternal damnation. Look for instance at Judas. Although Jesus calls him a devil and a traitor He does this not to condemn Judas but to warn Judas. In every instance Jesus tries to help Judas. He even warns him beforehand so that Judas can be given the opportunity to change. It is not the betrayal the condemns Judas but it is what Judas does after his betrayal that condemns him. For Jesus can forgive any sin but when Judas is lead to despair he then kills himself. While suicide is not the ultimate rejection for others yet for Judas it was. Suicide among the mentally ill and also in many other cases is better understood today so the Church does not see it as the ultimate sin. God was concern for His Apostle and tried to warn him many times. The warning was rejected and Judas decides to give Jesus over to the authorities. Probably Judas wanted Jesus to be exposed and so reveal Himself to the Pharisees as Judas saw Jesus do with many other peoples. However the Lord will not give into Judas demands and decided not to be exposed and not play into the bluff of His Apostle. To his amazement Judas could not understand why Jesus was willing to die. When Jesus did not play into Judas hand or bluff, the apostle went away scared and frightened and that is when the devil conjured the apostle into despair and Judas then hanged himself. Judas did not want Jesus to die. If he did why then did he kill himself ? It will make more sense that Judas wanted to exposed Jesus. But Jesus did not want to play that way and that is when Judas was startled to see Jesus willingly to die. Was Judas born damned? Of course not. Yet we see what happened to him. And we can see Jesus trying so hard to save him. No one deserves condemnation because God loves everyone. However consequences to their decisions may lead people to total seperation from God and therefore reluctantly to their condemnation. God does not desire their condemnation. For eternity God will have a great sorrow over His lost ones and only He can know how much painful it will always be. God will always grieve over His lost children.

It seems Judas attempted to repent when he brought back the 30 pieces of silver to the Jewish leaders and said he has sinned against an innocent man. Maybe his suicide was also that of a “scared and frightened” man as you suggested, and he hanged himself because of this mental state. Of course, he had the choice to admit his sin and not give into suicide. For all we know, in his last second or two, he may have called out to God for forgiveness.

 

[Miriam1947]

Well, God knows, yes?

I can’t help but think if God knows everything, than He already knows the fate of a soul when He creates it, so He’s actually (sometimes) intentionally creating a soul who won’t be saved.

We’d have the sensation of “free will” since we don’t know everything, but if God knew I wouldn’t be saved when He created me, then I can’t “surprise” God by making a choice He didn’t expect. My fate was already written, and was already in place before I was born.

If my “free will” could surprise God, then yes… I’m capable of making a choice to be saved. But if not, if He created my soul knowing it wouldn’t be saved, isn’t that being born “damned?”

My fate was already written, and was already in place before I was born.

Scary to think about isn’t it? It really used to bother me too especially since I was a Presbyterian and was taught predestination. I always railed against it, could never understand it and still don’t.

Here is the way I look at it now. Because God is outside time, God knows what you have decided. But free will means that you can decide to love him, you can decide to be saved. Just because an answer is known does not mean that you personally did not have a choice.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Well, God knows, yes?

I can’t help but think if God knows everything, than He already knows the fate of a soul when He creates it, so He’s actually (sometimes) intentionally creating a soul who won’t be saved.

I would like to make a picky argument that God does not actually know the fate of our soul. I will argue that this is consistent with Catholic teaching:

The word know is the present tense of the verb to know. The tense is a reference to the present time. God’s knowledge is outside of time. His knowledge of the future is not in our present moment, it is outside of time. He knows the future from the future, not from the present. It might be closer to say that God “will know” our fate, although that isn’t accurate either. We need a new tense of verb, something like “God knowee” our fate. It’s not the same as “will know” or “knew” or “knows”.

 

[JRKH]

Having given this some bit of thought I’d like to ask this question.
If the OP or moderator think this is a derail of the thread, please feel free to say so and I’ll make it a seperate thread…

If predestination were true and you knew to which fate you were born, how would that effect your behavior?
If you knew you were doomed, would you have any reason to strive to change the verdict?
If you knew you were saved, you you have any incentive to strive for holiness?

It seems to me that the very idea of teaching “predestination” as some knowable or discernable fact would have a negative effect on the whole world.

Peace
James

 

[DavidKays]

It seems Judas attempted to repent when he brought back the 30 pieces of silver to the Jewish leaders and said he has sinned against an innocent man. Maybe his suicide was also that of a “scared and frightened” man as you suggested, and he hanged himself because of this mental state. Of course, he had the choice to admit his sin and not give into suicide. For all we know, in his last second or two, he may have called out to God for forgiveness.

That is very true. The Church has never made a verdict on Judas nor on anyone else.

 

[4Horsemen]

Having given this some bit of thought I’d like to ask this question.
If the OP or moderator think this is a derail of the thread, please feel free to say so and I’ll make it a seperate thread…

If predestination were true and you knew to which fate you were born, how would that effect your behavior?
If you knew you were doomed, would you have any reason to strive to change the verdict?
If you knew you were saved, you you have any incentive to strive for holiness?

It seems to me that the very idea of teaching “predestination” as some knowable or discernable fact would have a negative effect on the whole world.

Peace
James

To answer in short I would say concerning the first question: Knowing that predestination was true (supposedly) and knowing my own fate before the fact, I would choose to do as I pleased. I believe that answers the next two questions as well, since my fate wouldn’t change in spite of my actions or beliefs, or lack thereof.

 

[JRKH]

To answer in short I would say concerning the first question: Knowing that predestination was true (supposedly) and knowing my own fate before the fact, I would choose to do as I pleased. I believe that answers the next two questions as well, since my fate wouldn’t change in spite of my actions or beliefs, or lack thereof.

And in short, this is the most damning argument agianst the whole teaching of predestination and OSAS.

Peace
James

 

[mgreen77]

If predestination were true and you knew to which fate you were born, how would that effect your behavior?

Great question! But for me, not one bit

I honestly don’t care about getting into Heaven. I do what I do just because it’s the right thing to do, not to get a reward from God, not to avoid His punishment.

I’m obsessive, everything is a moral decison for me, right down to which cereal to buy, which top to wear, which gas station to stop at. I’ve always been that way, I don’t know any other way to *Be *really.

So being saved or damned doesn’t change any of that, the obsession with “doing right” is an obsession unto itself

 

[4Horsemen]

Great question! But for me, not one bit

I honestly don’t care about getting into Heaven. I do what I do just because it’s the right thing to do, not to get a reward from God, not to avoid His punishment.

I’m obsessive, everything is a moral decison for me, right down to which cereal to buy, which top to wear, which gas station to stop at. I’ve always been that way, I don’t know any other way to *Be *really.

So being saved or damned doesn’t change any of that, the obsession with “doing right” is an obsession unto itself

Then you would you say that doing things this way all your life (which is really “my way or the highway” thinking) is creating your own morality in which you decide which is right or wrong. In other words, then you are your own god. Others may think and do things differently. They may have their own moral system or amoral system. For example, some people may consider abortion wrong for themselves but regard abortion as anyone’s choice (except for the baby). So if everybody had their own moral code or yardstick for behavior, it would be impossible to set the bar for law and order. Usually, majority rules, forgetting there is really a Law above all other laws.

I find it hard to believe your statement: “I honestly don’t care about getting into heaven.” I think if a survey were taken, most people would want to go to a happy place like heaven, and probably, most people think they are going there no matter what they did or didn’t do in their life time on earth.

 

[mgreen77]

Then you would you say that doing things this way all your life (which is really “my way or the highway” thinking) is creating your own morality in which you decide which is right or wrong. In other words, then you are your own god

Well, I really can’t speak to all those conclusions. I can only describe how I personally feel to try and answer James’s questions.

Which is to say, for me, the ideas of being saved or damned aren’t related to my trying to make good choices and do the right thing. It’s not like I’m sitting here wishing I could do all sorts of selfish and mean things, restrained only by a fear of the law or God’s wrath or hope for His rewards. So knowing my fate wouldn’t change how I act.

Are my choices arbitrary and selfish? I don’t know, I just try to listen to my conscious. Isn’t it often said that God speaks to us through our conscious?

I find it hard to believe your statement: “I honestly don’t care about getting into heaven.” I think if a survey were taken, most people would want to go to a happy place like heaven, and probably, most people think they are going there no matter what they did or didn’t do in their life time on earth.

I’m sure most do want to go. I really hadn’t thought about it until James’s question got me thinking, and I realized it doesn’t sound very appealing to me. I’m not against being happy, but I don’t see how I could be happy and relaxed in Heaven knowing the rest of humanity is still slugging it out down here

 

[JDaniel]

Is it possible that some people are born damned, and inherently incapable of being “saved?”

Or that some people don’t have souls to save (as with animals), or even that their souls are “tainted” in some way so that they can’t form a bond or covenant with God?

mgreen:

See this post: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=7332599#post7332599

God bless,
jd

 

[JDaniel]

Is it possible that some people are born damned, and inherently incapable of being “saved?”

Or that some people don’t have souls to save (as with animals), or even that their souls are “tainted” in some way so that they can’t form a bond or covenant with God?

mgreen:

At the instant of conception/creation, God knows which way a new human will go. Remember, creation is a very different event from standard causal events. God starts with nothingness, then brings fundamental matter and Form into being for the very first time. The life of the person unfolds for God at that instant. But, it is our belief that God wants all of his creatures to succeed. He wants them all to achieve the Beatific Vision. But, as hard as this is to grasp, what takes place does not take place in time.

When I say, ‘before,’ I mean sequentially, not temporally. Sequentially prior to conception, the primary matter and the form for the Creation of a new soul, exists outside of time just as God does. At some part of the sequence, time begins for the fundamental material(s), as we know from science. That’s when God knows the temporal future of each new human being.

One could say, that God knows whether one is saved or damned at the precise point of creation/conception. As I said in the other post, this does not make creation absurd. Nor does it render it so that there is nothing we must do. It is precisely the opposite: it is exactly the point from whence we must start ‘Good Works.’ We do not know into which category we will fall, and it is the sum of our actions that God ‘sees’ unfold before him from within his Eternal Now. As the other definition of man states, “a man is the sum of his actions.” He is that to God. Thus, the Calvinist doctrine is incorrect, although I suspect that Calvinists dearly keep Christ’s primary commandment.

God knowing which way we will go, also knows that our actions, those that make us who we are, will be commensurate with our fate.

God bless,
jd

 

[timotheos]

Is it possible that some people are born damned, and inherently incapable of being “saved?”

Or that some people don’t have souls to save (as with animals), or even that their souls are “tainted” in some way so that they can’t form a bond or covenant with God?

Great question, and quite pertinent to me right now. I reflect on my life and cirumstances, and can’t help but notice the uncanny number of things seemingly designed to lead me away from a life of faith. Many of these things (eg. undesirable physical attributes, anhedonic personality, the dysfunctional family I was born into) were definitely fashioned by God. Then add in all of the painful family, school, life and marriage experiences combined with my inability to handle or make sense of them, it feels as if God is trying to take away my hope; to keep me out of heaven.

I continue to pray, attend mass and do works of mercy, and continue to love God and neighbor (in the Catholic sense), as justice demands it. But I nonetheless have to admit to strong feelings that I have been “born damned”.

 

[JDaniel]

Great question, and quite pertinent to me right now. I reflect on my life and cirumstances, and can’t help but notice the uncanny number of things seemingly designed to lead me away from a life of faith. Many of these things (eg. undesirable physical attributes, anhedonic personality, the dysfunctional family I was born into) were definitely fashioned by God. Then add in all of the painful family, school, life and marriage experiences combined with my inability to handle or make sense of them, it feels as if God is trying to take away my hope; to keep me out of heaven.

I continue to pray, attend mass and do works of mercy, and continue to love God and neighbor (in the Catholic sense), as justice demands it. But I nonetheless have to admit to strong feelings that I have been “born damned”.

Timotheos:

You may not like what I am about to tell you, then, again, you might: “Work harder to Love God and mankind…” Immerse yourself in it, in those times when you don’t have to struggle to provide for yourself. Or, include, when you can, in those times. Don’t commiserate by yourself.

God bless you,
jd

 

[4Horsemen]

mgreen:

At the instant of conception/creation, God knows which way a new human will go. Remember, creation is a very different event from standard causal events. God starts with nothingness, then brings fundamental matter and Form into being for the very first time. The life of the person unfolds for God at that instant. But, it is our belief that God wants all of his creatures to succeed. He wants them all to achieve the Beatific Vision. But, as hard as this is to grasp, what takes place does not take place in time.

Hello jd,

I realize you are referring to St. Thomas Aquinas’ thoughts on the soul and its makeup. I just wonder about your first sentence, “At the instant of conception/creation, God knows which way a new human will go.” It seems that God would know each of us even before He actually creates us and, also, know every choice we will make during our life, since all is Present to Him. In other words, He doesn’t just see us as we exist sequentially (I don’t know if I’m being clear), but He sees us at every nanosecond of our lives – being conceived, born, growing up, growing old, dying. Maybe you are saying something similar in a different way. I don’t really understand how God “starts with nothingness, then brings fundamental matter (the atoms in the universe?) and Form (shape? soul?) into being . . .” Of course, the way God sees His creation is above our thoughts as Scripture tells us.

When I say, ‘before,’ I mean sequentially, not temporally. Sequentially prior to conception, the primary matter and the form for the Creation of a new soul, exists outside of time just as God does. At some part of the sequence, time begins for the fundamental material(s), as we know from science. That’s when God knows the temporal future of each new human being.

So, then, time would begin for a new person when s/he is invested with a soul. Still, it’s hard to conceive how “the primary matter and form for the Creation of a new soul, exists outside of time” since matter is material, stuff of the universe. I can see that form is something God defines but wouldn’t He need the matter from the universe He created to accomplish making a form, in other words, materials?

One could say, that God knows whether one is saved or damned at the precise point of creation/conception. As I said in the other post, this does not make creation absurd. Nor does it render it so that there is nothing we must do. It is precisely the opposite: it is exactly the point from whence we must start ‘Good Works.’ We do not know into which category we will fall, and it is the sum of our actions that God ‘sees’ unfold before him from within his Eternal Now. As the other definition of man states, “a man is the sum of his actions.” He is that to God. Thus, the Calvinist doctrine is incorrect, although I suspect that Calvinists dearly keep Christ’s primary commandment.

God knowing which way we will go, also knows that our actions, those that make us who we are, will be commensurate with our fate.

Again, God knows about whether we are saved or damned before ever creating us. But I don’t think the soul was in existence before the body.

 

[JDaniel]

Hello jd,

I realize you are referring to St. Thomas Aquinas’ thoughts on the soul and its makeup. I just wonder about your first sentence, “At the instant of conception/creation, God knows which way a new human will go.” It seems that God would know each of us even before He actually creates us and, also, know every choice we will make during our life, since all is Present to Him. In other words, He doesn’t just see us as we exist sequentially (I don’t know if I’m being clear), but He sees us at every nanosecond of our lives – being conceived, born, growing up, growing old, dying. Maybe you are saying something similar in a different way. I don’t really understand how God “starts with nothingness, then brings fundamental matter (the atoms in the universe?) and Form (shape? soul?) into being . . .” Of course, the way God sees His creation is above our thoughts as Scripture tells us.

4horsemen:

Thank you for correcting my prose. You are quite correct. The entirety of the Creation Event is known to God from its very beginning.

So, then, time would begin for a new person when s/he is invested with a soul.

That’s what I think, considering the logic. I think humans are a part of the Creation Event, which means that we are each created. If we are, then there was no pre-existing stuff from which to make us. Science will have a problem if we say that God is using what is already here. Of course, science will have a problem if we say that God creates new matter, given the Laws of thermodynamics. The soul is not merely the form, it is the unification of fundamental matter and form.

We are all made of the same stuff, so we are all fundamentally, but not completely, different. If this stuff did not pre-exist each creation-event, where was it? Certainly, Forms were instantly created. I cannot conceive of a stable of Forms. And, Fundamental Matter, ‘quarks?’ I don’t know. What do you think?

Still, it’s hard to conceive how “the primary matter and form for the Creation of a new soul, exists outside of time” since matter is material, stuff of the universe.

Perhaps matter existed. But, certainly, Form could not. We are the creations of God, just as the macro-universe. The universe was created without the pre-presence of anything existent. Now, if God is still rolling out the universe, then he could be creating matter as part of the roll-out. Any thoughts?

I can see that form is something God defines but wouldn’t He need the matter from the universe He created to accomplish making a form, in other words, materials?

No, there’s no past tense. See what I mean?

Again, God knows about whether we are saved or damned before ever creating us. But I don’t think the soul was in existence before the body.

That’s right. The soul is the fusion. It is Form and Primary Matter combined. Yet, it is still hard for me to conceive that God knows in advance of Creation, sequentially. It has to be at the beginning moment of creation. And, we don’t know “when” that is. But, I may be wrong.

Good reply!

God bless,
jd

 

[4Horsemen]

Well, I really can’t speak to all those conclusions. I can only describe how I personally feel to try and answer James’s questions.

Which is to say, for me, the ideas of being saved or damned aren’t related to my trying to make good choices and do the right thing. It’s not like I’m sitting here wishing I could do all sorts of selfish and mean things, restrained only by a fear of the law or God’s wrath or hope for His rewards. So knowing my fate wouldn’t change how I act.

You said you’d do good things because it’s the right thing to do? On what basis do you believe that? It can’t be the Natural Law or even Divine Law because that’s where we originally get our understanding of rightness and wrongness, good and bad, love and hate . . .
You want to live as good a life as possible. You choose to do so without the threat of punishment or the joy of rewards. Perhaps because you find it more satisfying, fulfilling, worthy of your honor as a human being, just, godly, etc. . . But the question is why would you feel that it is somehow the best thing for you to do to choose goodness over evil? Because it’s in your best interests? Others? Society’s? All? Maybe you’re a pragmatist although you may not have thought about it outright.

I’m saying that without Divine Law/Natural Law and the reward of Heaven and punishment of Hell, it is harder for most people to love God and their neighbor as themselves. It’s the Law that causes us to see evil for what it is.

Are my choices arbitrary and selfish? I don’t know, I just try to listen to my conscious. Isn’t it often said that God speaks to us through our conscious?

I suppose you can still believe in God and not in life everlasting, as did the Jews of the Old Testament. But I think there was some understanding as the book of Maccabees tells us to pray for the dead. You said you try to listen to your conscience. But our conscience must be formed correctly or we can fall into the trap of relativity.

I’m sure most do want to go. I really hadn’t thought about it until James’s question got me thinking, and I realized it doesn’t sound very appealing to me. I’m not against being happy, but I don’t see how I could be happy and relaxed in Heaven knowing the rest of humanity is still slugging it out down here

In Heaven, we’ll have perfect happiness knowing that God is in perfect control. He loves all His children and claims His creation is good. We should trust Him even here on earth, that He is working in our lives and speaking to us in our conscience. In Heaven, you WILL be happy because that is what Heaven is all about – perfect happiness with God.

 

[4Horsemen]

jd,

You brought up some good points which I’ll have to mull over in my head, or in my dreams for now. Thanks for your response.

Many blessings,
4Horsemen