Are strict vegetarians acting morally?

[Dan_Grelinger]

To my mind, animals and people are not equal, though animals are indeed sentient beings who feel pain, share love, etc, and deserve to be respected for that.

Animals don’t love in any real sense.

I don’t want any animal to be tortured and die just because I want a burger. (have you SEEN slaughterhouse footage…puke)

If they are raised morally (no abuse) and killed ethically, would it be better that they never would have been born? If we don’t eat them, so many of they would never be bred, born, and raised to a healthy size and weight for the slaughter. If I was an animal, I’d probably pick life and the eventual death (which comes anyway) over nonexistence. But, maybe they are just dumb animals.

Dan

 

[cor]

I wish people would stop referring to Dr. Atkins. It has been proven time and again that his diet is entirely too high in saturated fat, etc.

Be that as it may, in a recent study that was in the news (about a month, maybe several months ago) in a survey of IIRC 5 different diets, the Atkins nutritional approach resulted in the most weight loss. So it’s at least good for losing weight.

 

[JLSacred]

Be that as it may, in a recent study that was in the news (about a month, maybe several months ago) in a survey of IIRC 5 different diets, the Atkins nutritional approach resulted in the most weight loss. So it’s at least good for losing weight.

Smoking cigarettes also can help one lose weight. So can snorting meth, actually…

 

[GottaBeMare]

<< Animals don’t love in any real sense. >>

You haven’t had dogs, have you?

Seriously though, I do believe that animals are able to love in their own sense. Dogs show loyalty that usually seems to be beyound modern humanity. Elephants have complex mourning rituals. They also are much smarter then some humans want to give them credit for. I base my thoughts on my time spent around animals, including a decade riding, showing and training horses and eight years now working with local animal rescues.

But despite that love of animals, I am an omnivore. I don’t eat alot of meat, but I do eat it for dinner several times a week to help stave off anemia. I have cut down my meat consumption drastically after my father’s heart attack last October and our whole family started eating heart healthy for support. The longer I go without eating meat, the less I miss it. If the finances were a little better I might be a vegetarian, but not for moral issues…simply because I don’t like all the **** they put in our cows now a days. And even then, I would probably end up just buying organic meat.

Basically I believe we have dominion over animals, which gives us an obligation to treat them humanely and without cruelty. However, no matter how much I love my 8 animals (4 dogs and 4 cats, all rescues) I do realize they can’t be put on the same level as human life. And I honestly believe that God put cows on this earth for a reason, and it wasn’t to go “moo”.

 

[tomch]

I am vegan for health reasons, not because I feel it is “wrong” to eat meat/animals. I don’t care if you choose to eat meat/animals. I won’t preach to you. It is a choice I made for me. But it in no way makes me one of “those crazy PETA people”

Kathy

YOU DON’T EAT NO MEAT!!! Eh… that’s okay. I’ll make lamb. (excerpt from “My Big Fat Greek Wedding”)

Okay, my post is probably just a waste of space, and I’m hopelessly off topic, but I do love that movie, don’t you?

I tried to be a vegan for a while last year (thanks to a few books by Dr. Fuhrman). It’s HARD! I think I may try again soon though… I really felt a lot better when I was on the vegan diet, but so many of my favorite foods were made with meat. Do you know what’s even harder than vegan? RAW vegan. I think I managed to stay a raw vegan for 2 days once. <>

Okay…now to get on topic again…I’ve read Atkins, Fuhrman, Zone, etc. It’s funny how every expert can line up facts to support his diet, and totally trash the other diets. I see most of the evidence supporting raw, natural diets, with very limited amounts of meat (for Vitamin B12). Eating strict vegetarian (with vitamin supplementation) is very healthy, but having just a teensy weensy little bit of meat per week is considered by many to be even healthier. Of course, I’m not an expert. I just play one on TV.

Notice that I didn’t say that I necessarily follow this diet… but I probably should.

 

[mapleoak]

Mammals are warm blooded - if you cut a turnip, it will not bleed! (hence the saying, you can’t get blood out of a turnip LOL) Show me a plant that has a brain or a nervous system.

How about mushrooms?

I went veg because I was sickened by the thought of the poor treatment of the animals every time I took a bite of meat. I even threw up once. After taking a “Farm management” class my freshman year of university and witnessing firsthand how they treat the animals I could hardly stand the thought of eating meat. The only choice I could live with was to quit eating meat.

I cannot say much for the “Farm Management” class you are talking about as I am not familiar with it. Having farmed for many years I can say that as farmers we are stewards of the creatures God has placed in our care. It it would certainly be beneficial for you to visit variety of farms and see what the overwhelming standard is for animal treatment. This would be much better than making a broad generalization about how farmers treat their animals based on something learned in the classroom.
Understand that a farmer makes his living off of the animals he raises, whether it be meat, milk, eggs, etc. Any experienced farmer will tell you that an abused or improperly treated cow or goat will not put milk in the pail.

In Christ - J.M.J.
Mapleoak

 

[JessicaCeleste]

Animals don’t love in any real sense.

I’m sorry, but that strikes me as an incredibly ignorant statement. Simply because animals do not communicate in a way that we can understand, does not mean that they can’t feel love. Have you ever had companion animals? Have you ever spent any time with animals of any kind?

I’m curious, why do you believe that animals can’t love?

If they are raised morally (no abuse) and killed ethically, would it be better that they never would have been born? If we don’t eat them, so many of they would never be bred, born, and raised to a healthy size and weight for the slaughter. If I was an animal, I’d probably pick life and the eventual death (which comes anyway) over nonexistence. But, maybe they are just dumb animals.

Dan

For fear of being rude and nasty, I’m going to ignore that comment. I can’t believe you.

Jess

 

[JessicaCeleste]

…that Dr. Atkins was obese. He died at 258 pounds. At 6 feet, that’s fat. End of story.

Also, the ME’s report also noted that Atkins had a history of heart trouble, congestive heart failure and high blood pressure.

Just sayin’.

When following your own invented diet, you are still obese and sick, something doesn’t grok. Atkins was a charlatan and a quack who fed off of desperate people.

~Jess

(sources: nealhendrickson.com/mcdougall/040200puatkins.htm ; msnbc.msn.com/id/4230348/ ; serendip.brynmawr.edu/biology/b103/f02/web1/kbailey.html )

 

[PatienceAndLove]

A vegan diet is heavy on carbs & sugars, which leads to excess insulin.

A junk-food vegan/vegetarian diet is. If you are being a good vegan/vegetarian, you are eating complex carbohydrates and large amounts of vegetables.
I’m sorry- as much as I miss steak, steak can never take the place of a gorgeously made vegetable salad or a bean/spinach/kale pasta salad.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

I am Vegan and Catholic. I see no clash of values or morals between the two.

I was vegan for Lent, to sacrifice more. I am just vegetarian now.

I believe that a well balanced vegan diet is the best for our bodies and our world, but I also realize that every person’s body is very different. What works for ]one doesn’t necessarily work for another. Would I love to see everybody eating vegan and living compassionately, YES! Will it happen in my lifetime, no way

YES!!! I am actually raising my daughter vegetarian, and she is thriving! I am amazed by it.

Yes, it is possible to be a “Junk Food Vegan” and be fat, unhealthy and malnourished. After all, Oreos and Coke are vegan! The key is to eat a varied diet, and you’re sure to get all the essential nutrients that you need. Of course, taking a supplement helps

What kind do you take, because I am looking for a good vegan suppliment

Go to veganlunchbox.blogspot.com/ for some good veggie filled recipes! Even my uber-meat eating FH loves the stuff from that website.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

YOU DON’T EAT NO MEAT!!! Eh… that’s okay. I’ll make lamb. (excerpt from “My Big Fat Greek Wedding”)

YES!!! I LOVE that movie, and that is one of my favorite lines!!!

 

[MariaG]

i agreed w/ you until you said this. OUr bodies are far more alike than they are different. I believe low-carb is what is best for everyone, at least MOST of the time. There are times i don’t eat a lot of meat, but i almost always eat some cheese or something with protein in it. I feel so much better when i do (etc…).

People who have special needs obviously need to eat a little differently, but not much… Pregnant women should definitely eat high protein-high fat. An unborn child grows faster in the womb than at any other time in his/her life… But she should also eat as much as she can of carbs (my opinion). Even so, there is “pregnancy diabetes” so maybe that suggestion wouldn’t work there…
For those who are no longer growing or pregnant or sick, i believe Atkins is the best diet…
As stated elsewhere, people who don’t eat meat don’t live very long…

Respectfully, you said it even yourself, protein can be found in sources other than meat.

And not all carbs are made the same. The carbs from a candy bar are not going to effect a person the same as the carbs from a high fiber vegetable.

I do believe Atkins for life is very good for MANY people. In fact a majority since type O is a very common blood type. But the fact of the matter is people who are not type O, the carnivore blood type, do not always do as well on it as others. Type A’s being a prime example.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

I completely agree. I function so much better when I rarely eat meat, while DH could eat meat for his only course, every meal and feel great. I’m serious; he went for a checkup and he’s healthy as can be. I was really worried about the way he eats, but he’s got good genes (his dad’s the same way).

Makes for some interesting meals at our house. I went veg, but now eat meat occasionally so that we can share meals together. He just freaks at the sight of a veg that isn’t iceberg lettuce.

That sounds like my house Although I am not a vegetarian, I have been heading that direction, at least to a fish, and egg type. I find I feel much better. I am an “A” Blood type, DH is “O” .

Interestingly enough, before I found out about blood types, my son a type A, naturally shied away from most meat. He loves fish, but red meat? we never could get him to eat it. His favorite food as a kid was squash. Still is as a matter of fact. Offer him squash or a good T-bone and he would ask for sqash everytime.

I also have heard from friends who tried to go vegetarian because it was “healthier” and who got sick. Turns out, all were type O, the carnivores

 

[MariaG]

…that Dr. Atkins was obese. He died at 258 pounds. At 6 feet, that’s fat. End of story.

Also, the ME’s report also noted that Atkins had a history of heart trouble, congestive heart failure and high blood pressure.

Just sayin’.

When following your own invented diet, you are still obese and sick, something doesn’t grok. Atkins was a charlatan and a quack who fed off of desperate people.

~Jess

(sources: nealhendrickson.com/mcdougall/040200puatkins.htm ; msnbc.msn.com/id/4230348/ ; serendip.brynmawr.edu/biology/b103/f02/web1/kbailey.html )

Respectfully, there is scientific evidence that supports Atkins findings and specifically the plan outlined in Atkins for Life is quite healthy.

This thread started with the false supposition that it is not moral to be a vegetarian because it is somehow saying what God made is not good. This is just not true.

Vegetarians can be very healthy. So can meat eaters. And many who use Atkins properly, can literally say that Atkins saved their lives, but some who became vegetarians can say the same about vegetarianism saving theirs.

 

[JessicaCeleste]

What kind do you take, because I am looking for a good vegan suppliment

Go to veganlunchbox.blogspot.com/ for some good veggie filled recipes! Even my uber-meat eating FH loves the stuff from that website.

I’m still looking for the “right” one for my system. I’m not happy with the ones at the local co-op, so I’m going to be purchasing my supplement from veganessentials.com . I can let you know which one I get.

 

[JessicaCeleste]

If they are raised morally (no abuse) and killed ethically, would it be better that they never would have been born? If we don’t eat them, so many of they would never be bred, born, and raised to a healthy size and weight for the slaughter. If I was an animal, I’d probably pick life and the eventual death (which comes anyway) over nonexistence. But, maybe they are just dumb animals.

Dan

Okay, I tried to not let this statement bother me, but it’s been nagging at me all day.

The problem with factory farming is that there is no compassion, no feeling, nothing but torture and fear for those animals, whether they are chickens, cows, lambs, sea animals, whatever. Even so-called “kosher slaughter” is so very far from the original intention of respectful ritual preparation. There is truly no such thing as humane slaughter when it comes to modern day farming. They are nothing but property, assets, and victims of indiscriminate abuse.

If every single animal meant for food was cherished for what it was, respected for giving it’s life so that we could survive. If they all had access to clean, fresh feed, and water. If they could come and go as they wanted, could stretch their legs / wings / necks. If they weren’t forced to be continually pregnant, if they weren’t raped at our discretion. If they weren’t forced into cannibalization because it’s cheaper for the “farmer” to feed it dead, rotting, and sick animals that high quality feed. If. Maybe then, maybe I could conceive being an omnivore, perhaps that would justify eating the flesh of another animal.

I believe that perhaps it would be better if those animals had never been born.

Then maybe male calves wouldn’t be ripped from their mothers when just a few hours old, tied to a small stall, forced to eat an iron deficient diet when they are fed at all, then killed at just a few months old and sold as a delicacy.

Maybe dairy cows wouldn’t ever have to bellow out while their calf was torn from her udder, or have another forced pregnancy, have painfully swollen udders for their whole lives, or watch as their sister dairy cows collapse because they are so worn out from continually having babies and are unable to do anything but lay there.

Maybe male piglets would get to keep their testicles, instead of having the cut out (without anesthetic, mind you), or keep their tails attached, or gasp have whole ears.

Perhaps chickens wouldn’t be stuffed 20 to a 12 x 16 foot cage, stacked level upon level, with no room to stretch their wings or even scratch for bugs, only able to poop on the chickens in the next layer down.

Maybe those same chickens could get to keep their beaks, instead of having them seared off with a hot blade - sans anesthetic and grow normally, instead of being bred to have breasts rivaling Pam Anderson, or deformed feet, and unable to walk at all.

Oh, that’s right. Animals can’t feel anything, right?

You can choose to be ignorant of where your food comes from, Dan. It’s a free country. At least for us.

 

[JessicaCeleste]

This thread started with the false supposition that it is not moral to be a vegetarian because it is somehow saying what God made is not good. This is just not true.

Fine. Then I say we drop it and agree to disagree. Frankly, this is becoming nothing more than overly dramatic argument that is going nowhere.

~Jess

 

[nichjake]

I cannot say much for the “Farm Management” class you are talking about as I am not familiar with it. Having farmed for many years I can say that as farmers we are stewards of the creatures God has placed in our care. It it would certainly be beneficial for you to visit variety of farms and see what the overwhelming standard is for animal treatment. This would be much better than making a broad generalization about how farmers treat their animals based on something learned in the classroom.
Understand that a farmer makes his living off of the animals he raises, whether it be meat, milk, eggs, etc. Any experienced farmer will tell you that an abused or improperly treated cow or goat will not put milk in the pail.

In Christ - J.M.J.
Mapleoak

This was a university course I took…it entailed much more than just sitting in a classroom. In this course we took fieldtrips to several area farms…dairy, cattle, poultry, sheep…pretty much everything except hogs because the hog farm near us is very restrictive as to who they let in. Every single farm we visited thouroughly disgusted me in the way they treated the animals. The overwhelming standard I’ve seen is dispicable.

 

[Katie1723]

A junk-food vegan/vegetarian diet is. If you are being a good vegan/vegetarian, you are eating complex carbohydrates and large amounts of vegetables.
I’m sorry- as much as I miss steak, steak can never take the place of a gorgeously made vegetable salad or a bean/spinach/kale pasta salad.

I agree with you. I eat whole grains. RARELY white stuff. So I feel that I have a well balanced diet.
Kathy

 

[Jay2]

Animals raised for human consumption are another story. They are raised by a farmer intending to sell them and make a profit to sustain his farm & family - they are not PETS. Even the “Blue Ribbon Champion” at the Fair will wind up on someone’s plate or in Fido’s bowl at some time.

People seem to think that these animals could make it on their own. They cannot. They have been domesticated. They only know how to eat, poop, and make more of themselves.

Mr. & Mrs. Farmer will provide adequate food, shelter, and medical care for their animals up until time to harvest/sell.
The animals have a ride in a truck, and are delivered to a meat-packing/processing plant.

Yes, some animals get injured on the ride… but what is their final destination? The trucking company & the owner of the packing plant are trying to make a profit to sustain their business & family. They are not going call the Vet for a gash incurred in transit, or throw away an entire beef cow because it broke its leg coming down the chute… in 20 minutes it won’t matter.

My wife was raised on a Sheep & Cattle farm. I’ve done work in 3 or 4 packing houses. From personal experience the animals are treated as humanely as possible without incurring excess expense to the farmer, processor, or ultimately the consumer.

If a plate of pasta & veggies ever sways me from an inch thick slab of medium-rare Prime Rib… you have my permission to shoot me.