Are Taxes Just?

[Bubba_Switzler]

There has been some good discussion here, and I thank all involved for their thoughts. I will make a few additional comments.

Thank you, Bubba Switzler, for clarifying this point. I am asking about the justice of taxes themselves. There is no question of taxes due for an unjust cause like abortion or an unjust war; in such cases, we must not support any means to private sin and public wrongdoing.

Man is only a caretaker and steward of God’s gifts, of which gold is one. Significantly, Christ first answered the Pharisees with this question: “Whose seal is upon this coin?” He first established that Caesar owned the coin, and then said it is just to return to Caesar what belongs to him.

In the case of taxes, is it just to pay Caesar whatever he demands? Or is Caesar also bound by justice not to demand what is beyond his due?

Is Caesar’s demand Caesar’s due?

Let me throw another aspect into this: When Jesus said as you quoted, the Romans were an occupying enemy. The question put to him was akin to whether or not it was just to cooperate with the enemy. He did not declare the occupation or the taxes to be just and good, he simply said to pay them much as he elsewhere advised to go the extra mile and turn the other cheek.

In our modern context, we have to consider that by and large taxes are not imposed by a foreign occupying power but by democratically elected politicians. The question of whether we should be electing politicans who raise our taxes is entirely seperate from the question of whether we should pay taxes so levied on us though many try to confuse the two to impute a validation of taxation.

Which question interests you most here?

 

[St_Francis]

Let me throw another aspect into this: When Jesus said as you quoted, the Romans were an occupying enemy. The question put to him was akin to whether or not it was just to cooperate with the enemy. He did not declare the occupation or the taxes to be just and good, he simply said to pay them much as he elsewhere advised to go the extra mile and turn the other cheek.

In our modern context, we have to consider that by and large taxes are not imposed by a foreign occupying power but by democratically elected politicians. The question of whether we should be electing politicans who raise our taxes is entirely seperate from the question of whether we should pay taxes so levied on us though many try to confuse the two to impute a validation of taxation.

Which question interests you most here?

The question is and has been if it is just for government to impose taxes, right?

Has the Church anywhere taught that taxes in and of themselves are unjust? Has the Church anywhere taught that taxes imposed by an occupying government are different from taxes imposed by one’s own government?

 

[Fairwinds]

The question is and has been if it is just for government to impose taxes, right?

Has the Church anywhere taught that taxes in and of themselves are unjust? Has the Church anywhere taught that taxes imposed by an occupying government are different from taxes imposed by one’s own government?

I don’t see why an occupying government’s taxes are necessarily unjust. civil services have to continue (fire, police, utilities, defense) regardless of who is in control. the taxes might be unjust in their effect, but not necessity because of who is levying them.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

The question is and has been if it is just for government to impose taxes, right?

But my point is that is not answered by quoting Mark 12:17.

So let me pose a clarifying question:

Do you believe that there are tax collectors in heaven? (I can easily imagine an IRS in hell; it may even be worse than the one we have here.)

QUOTE]Has the Church anywhere taught that taxes in and of themselves are unjust? Has the Church anywhere taught that taxes imposed by an occupying government are different from taxes imposed by one’s own government?
The Vatican has not issued tax policy papers as far as I know. But it has two concerns that are relevant here:

1. A peaceful society.
2. Care for the poor.

Now throughout recorded history taxes have been used for the first purpose. If we are to answer the general question then we must look to the most reasonable purpose of government and the most reasonable tax for supporting it and ask if that is just. With all due respect to our anarchist friends, I have a very hard time arguing against taxes for this purpose so long as there is a danger to social peace. It goes without saying that a more peaceful society has less need of government and therefore less need of taxes.

Using government to address the second goal is far more recent and far more controversial. And it also becomes entwined with another goal that is not advocated by the Church: equalization of condition. Believe it or not, there are those who advocate higher taxes for the purpose of “fairness” even when raising taxes will collect less revenue. This thread is not about the taxation for welfare or for punishing the rich but I wanted to put it on the table because that is the main driver of higher taxes in modern society. When we ask about the justice of taxes we have to take into account this unjust element of them.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I don’t see why an occupying government’s taxes are necessarily unjust. civil services have to continue (fire, police, utilities, defense) regardless of who is in control. the taxes might be unjust in their effect, but not necessity because of who is levying them.

What have the Romans ever done for us?

 

[Fairwinds]

What have the Romans ever done for us?

Q.E.D.

 

[Beryllos]

What have the Romans ever done for us?

They put Jesus up on a cross.

 

[St_Francis]

But my point is that is not answered by quoting Mark 12:17.

This is not the way Catholics operate, is it? Has the Church ever taught that taxes are in and of themselves unjust? Has the Church ever taught that there is a difference between taxes imposed by a nation’s own government and that of an occupier?

The operative words are “has the Church ever taught,” because that is what Catholics look to. They don’t look solely to the Bible as Protestants do, figuring out interpretations which please themselves willy-nilly. Catholics look towards what the Chirch teaches.

So let me pose a clarifying question:

Do you believe that there are tax collectors in heaven? (I can easily imagine an IRS in hell; it may even be worse than the one we have here.)

I gather this is a joke?

Has the Church anywhere taught that taxes in and of themselves are unjust? Has the Church anywhere taught that taxes imposed by an occupying government are different from taxes imposed by one’s own government?

The Vatican has not issued tax policy papers as far as I know. But it has two concerns that are relevant here:

So as far as you know, the Church has never taught that imposing taxes is inherently unjust. Thank you.

The rest of your post is regarding specific taxes, which does not touch upon the original question of whether or not taxes are inherently unjust.

1. A peaceful society.

1. Care for the poor.

Now throughout recorded history taxes have been used for the first purpose. If we are to answer the general question then we must look to the most reasonable purpose of government and the most reasonable tax for supporting it and ask if that is just. With all due respect to our anarchist friends, I have a very hard time arguing against taxes for this purpose so long as there is a danger to social peace. It goes without saying that a more peaceful society has less need of government and therefore less need of taxes.

This does not necessarily follow. Sometimes a nation is peaceful *because *of expenditures, so a reduction in taxes would reduce the peacefulness of a society.

Using government to address the second goal is far more recent and far more controversial. And it also becomes entwined with another goal that is not advocated by the Church: equalization of condition. Believe it or not, there are those who advocate higher taxes for the purpose of “fairness” even when raising taxes will collect less revenue. This thread is not about the taxation for welfare or for punishing the rich but I wanted to put it on the table because that is the main driver of higher taxes in modern society. When we ask about the justice of taxes we have to take into account this unjust element of them.

The “social safety net” used to be provided by the Church. Those in need (poor, sick, elderly, orphans, etc) were cared for by the religious, who were supoorted in part by themselves and in part by charitable donations from the area.

This system was torn apart by the Protestant revolt. In a non-Catholic area, the ruler would simply steal Church property and turn out the religous who lived there.

So when people in those lands needed help, they quite naturally turned to those who had stolen the safety net, right? And so we have the welfare state… which has been criticized by the Church in its most extreme manifestation.

The Church does teach that the poor must be cared for by the society in one way or another, but not to the detriment of the poor.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

This is not the way Catholics operate, is it? Has the Church ever taught that taxes are in and of themselves unjust? Has the Church ever taught that there is a difference between taxes imposed by a nation’s own government and that of an occupier? The operative words are “has the Church ever taught,” because that is what Catholics look to. They don’t look solely to the Bible as Protestants do, figuring out interpretations which please themselves willy-nilly. Catholics look towards what the Chirch teaches.

I was replying to the citation Mark 12:17 in defense of taxation. If citing scripture is unCatholic (?!) then you should take it up with the other poster.

When the Chuch is silent on an issue it is left as a prudential matter to the laity. I am not claiming that the Church has taught that taxation is unjust. Are you claiming that the Church has taught that it is just?

I gather this is a joke?

That’s not an answer. Do you agree that the idea of taxation in heaven is absurd?

So as far as you know, the Church has never taught that imposing taxes is inherently unjust. Thank you. The rest of your post is regarding specific taxes, which does not touch upon the original question of whether or not taxes are inherently unjust.

See above. (As I noted previusly, there was a time when the Church did not teach that slavery was inherently unjust.)

This does not necessarily follow. Sometimes a nation is peaceful *because *of expenditures, so a reduction in taxes would reduce the peacefulness of a society.

Notice that we are now well into the realm of prudence. This is precisely why the Church is largely silent on the matter of taxes.

However, modern society is so far from the above circumstances that we can safely discount it for the immediate future. Instead, what we find is that high taxes have contributed to injustice and violence in society. Among the many ways that this is happening is the substitution of welfare for work and bureaucracy for family and church.

The “social safety net” used to be provided by the Church. Those in need (poor, sick, elderly, orphans, etc) were cared for by the religious, who were supoorted in part by themselves and in part by charitable donations from the area.

This system was torn apart by the Protestant revolt. In a non-Catholic area, the ruler would simply steal Church property and turn out the religous who lived there.

The rise of the welfare state is far more recent than the Protestant revolution. While it was certainly a disruptive turn of history, civil institution survived Protestantism but they are unlikely to survive secularism. (Otto von Bismarck is generally given the “credit” for inventing the welfare state in the 1880s.)

So when people in those lands needed help, they quite naturally turned to those who had stolen the safety net, right? And so we have the welfare state… which has been criticized by the Church in its most extreme manifestation.

The Church does teach that the poor must be cared for by the society in one way or another, but not to the detriment of the poor.

Indeed, and again this is why prudence is essential.

 

[St_Francis]

I was replying to the citation Mark 12:17 in defense of taxation. If citing scripture is unCatholic (?!) then you should take it up with the other poster.

When the Chuch is silent on an issue it is left as a prudential matter to the laity. I am not claiming that the Church has taught that taxation is unjust. Are you claiming that the Church has taught that it is just?

Citing Scripture is fine; interpreting it in a narrow way that has never been mentioned in 2000 years of Chirch history to try to prove your point is not.

It is very hard to tell from your comments that you are not trying to say that taxation is unjust.

That’s not an answer. Do you agree that the idea of taxation in heaven is absurd?

Oops! I thought you meant might one find someone who on Earth had been a tax collector. I don’t think we will find people of any profession in Heaven: no chefs, no doctors, no plumbers, no taxi drivers… doesn’t mean that these activities on Earth are bad.

See above. (As I noted previusly, there was a time when the Church did not teach that slavery was inherently unjust.)

Quite possibly because the type of slavery which existed before that time was not as bad and was not inherently unjust?

Notice that we are now well into the realm of prudence. This is precisely why the Church is largely silent on the matter of taxes.

However, modern society is so far from the above circumstances that we can safely discount it for the immediate future. Instead, what we find is that high taxes have contributed to injustice and violence in society. Among the many ways that this is happening is the substitution of welfare for work and bureaucracy for family and church.

I would say that taxes in this area are a sort of concurrent symptom rather than a cause. Corelation does not equal causation.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Citing Scripture is fine; interpreting it in a narrow way that has never been mentioned in 2000 years of Chirch history to try to prove your point is not.

I won’t belabor this further but simply refer you back to my original post and the post to which it was a response.

It is very hard to tell from your comments that you are not trying to say that taxation is unjust.

Because I find the question, as stated, to be ambiguous and therefore inviting error. I have already explained this. I have made plenty of positives statements about taxation for your consideration.

Oops! I thought you meant might one find someone who on Earth had been a tax collector. I don’t think we will find people of any profession in Heaven: no chefs, no doctors, no plumbers, no taxi drivers… doesn’t mean that these activities on Earth are bad.

I think that it is quite plausible that we will encounter many such occupations in heaven. I do not expect to find tax collectors among them.

Quite possibly because the type of slavery which existed before that time was not as bad and was not inherently unjust?

newadvent.org/cathen/14036a.htm

I would say that taxes in this area are a sort of concurrent symptom rather than a cause. Corelation does not equal causation.

I would say that it is a cause. I would say further that justice would be best served by reducing taxes and reducing welfare and delegating these functions to the Catholic Church as a civil institution (as well as other religious and non-religious civil institutions).

That is a very practical answer to the original question.

If, however, you prefer to debate anarchism, you’ll need to find someone else.