Are the arguments for superiority of the TLM based on the dreaded emotionalism of the charismatics?

[saint_rafael]

St. Rafael, I guess I’m having a bit of a hard time with your statement about declining Mass attendance.

I’m now attending, as is my husband and daughter. We are all converts from evangelical Protestantism. And we know lots of others.

Perhaps rather than looking at everything with such a gloomy attitude, you should try looking at the Church with a positive attitude. There are so many good things–see the thread “What I Like About the Catholic Church.”

Thank God you have converted to the one true Church, but these conversions are small compared to the massive loss of Catholics to Protestantism, secularism, and loss of faith.

Stats never lie and numbers speak for themselves. 77% of Catholics do not attend Mass. This is an apostasy.

I never asked for this situation and I wish in a million years it was different. I must live with reality. We are in horrible times, times of apostasy and darkness. I personally would have liked to have been born in the Middle Ages or the early 20th century. I must live during this time, epoch, and generation.

The world is 100 times worse than you think because I spent years living in it without faith.

I must keep the faith and speak the truth about what the Church has taught and be true to the tradition of my fathers in the faith.

 

[stmaria]

LOL!!!

Follow the Church and not this conspiracy theory garbage!

Instead of going off the deep end, at least get your facts straight. *The Ottaviani Intervention *was written by 12 theologians in 1969 and the *Explanation of the Holy Mass *was written about 120 years ago. Conspiracy theory??

 

[saint_rafael]

That’s a strange way of looking at it- God is angered by our sin, so gives us a lesser liturgy? Doesn’t God want us to come back?

What about the Last Supper? I always imagined it being around a table, not Jesus facing away from his disciples toward a wall or something.
Just because something has been done for a long time does not make it necessary.

God has always punished his people when they strayed from him. Look how many times God punished Israel in the O.T. such as the wandering around in the desert for forty years.

It has been said in the Church that when God is angry with his Church, he sends bad Popes, bishops, and priests as a form of punishment.
There is also the messages of Fatima and the third secret which describes many chastisements.

The Mass is not only about the Last Supper. The Mass is also Good Friday because it was that sacrafice which the Mass represents every time. The Mass is the unbloody representation of the sacrafice at Calvary in which the same Jesus in an unbloody manner offers himself through the Priest, his body and blood to God the father as a propitiatory for sin.

 

[edward_george]

Amen! Often it seems as if traditionalists often become emotional in exactly the same way as those they criticize, only reversed.

What other reason for favoring the TLM would you have other than beauty and reverence (which are clearly subjective and emotional, in this case)?

I gave my reason–continuity with the traditions of the Church in the form of organic growth rather than antiquarianism (which is denounced in Pius XII’s Mediator Dei).

-ACEGC

 

[Sarpedon]

I gave my reason–continuity with the traditions of the Church in the form of organic growth rather than antiquarianism (which is denounced in Pius XII’s Mediator Dei).

-ACEGC

Why do you think this is necessary? What’s wrong with changing traditions? I am not familiar with Mediator Dei but will look it up.

 

[ethelzguy]

Has not anyone notice the last 40 years of liturgical disaster? The collapse of vocations and Mass attendance?

The collapse in vocations and Mass attendence was well under way before any liturgical changes came to be.

“Liturgical Disaster” is another personal opinion, a subjective one at that.

 

[Our_Refuge]

The collapse in vocations and Mass attendence was well under way before any liturgical changes came to be.
“Liturgical Disaster” is another personal opinion, a subjective one at that.

It was not ‘well under way’ before the litugical changes. In 1958 mass attendance was at 74%. In 2004 it was at 31%.
What brought about the change is up for debate.

cara.georgetown.edu/AttendPR.pdf

The Catholic population was 24% in the U.S. in 1965.
It was 22% of the populationin 2004 ao not much has changed there. Yet in 1965 there were only 549 parishes without a priest. In 2004 there were 3,238 parishes without a priest.

cara.georgetown.edu/bulletin/index.htm

 

[Sarpedon]

The OF was introduced in the 60s. I find it hard to believe that everything would have been fine if only the EF was retained- the societal factors present in that time period would have affected the church either way.

Back in the 1500s, many churches had to give up their liturgies because the Pope demanded that the Tridentine Rite (the way it was celebrated in Rome) be used instead. Did this result in a massive apostasy?

 

[Eric_Olsen]

This is extremely unfair and rather dishonest, at least objectively speaking. The examples you give are not the Pauline Mass. These examples are contrary to the Pauline Missal. Even sappy happy clappy music is not envisioned according to the documents composed in and following Vatican II.

Thats great but unfortunately 95% of the masses today are what I listed. I cant recall how many times I have been to a novous ordo mass that was done right. The closest I think was this past Maundy thursday…but even the music was sappy.

I suggest you and others watch the following documentary.

youtube.com/watch?v=TR5XT2Vtn6w

 

[Eric_Olsen]

Those are by no means a typical celebration OF Mass. They are not a product of the liturgy but of man – much like the mangled EF Masses we hear about – past and present.

For you to bring-up such inflammatory examples is extremely bad form -

I can count on one hand how many bad EF masses that were mangled to the endless mangled novous ordo masses.

 

[Lazerlike42]

Eric, you’re mistaken. To say that 95% of Of Masses are like that is a gross exagerration. In fact, it probably even constitutes the sin of slander against the Holy Mass itself. If you prefer the EF, that is ok, and if you have experienced some poor OFs and if you wish to lament at the Liturgical abuses that are done, that is ok too and we will join you. However, you must repent of making demonstrably false accusations against the Holy Mass.

Even if 95% of all OF Masses truly are like that, it still does not excuse labeling the OF with these abuses when you realize (as you imply when you say that you haven’t seen one done properly) that the proper way to say it is different.

And I will warn you, in regards to your love of the EF, that the number one reason that many people do not prefer the EF is because of the sorts of things that you are saying here that many EF enthusiasts constantly put forth.

 

[Eric_Olsen]

Well sir you have never walked in my shoes and to tell me that the bulk of slander comes from traditionalists towards the new mass is wrong. I have heard modernists, not always here, but else where talk about people who love tradition as wackos that need their head examined or ostracize those same people.
I have explained to people in my own parish that I go to a traditional mass and they look at me like “oh you are one of those” and act conscending towards me.

Just in my RCIA class, one the leaders nearly ripped my head off because I questioned why lay people need access to the altar and to go into the tabernacle. She is one of those who looks down at me when I see her. Even my own friends who grew up Catholic their whole lives look at me odly when I tell then I go this EF mass. Why is that? I have never bad mouthed the new mass in front of them.

So it goes both ways my friend. In my experience, more from the modernists.

Eric, you’re mistaken. To say that 95% of Of Masses are like that is a gross exagerration. In fact, it probably even constitutes the sin of slander against the Holy Mass itself. If you prefer the EF, that is ok, and if you have experienced some poor OFs and if you wish to lament at the Liturgical abuses that are done, that is ok too and we will join you. However, you must repent of making demonstrably false accusations against the Holy Mass.

Even if 95% of all OF Masses truly are like that, it still does not excuse labeling the OF with these abuses when you realize (as you imply when you say that you haven’t seen one done properly) that the proper way to say it is different.

And I will warn you, in regards to your love of the EF, that the number one reason that many people do not prefer the EF is because of the sorts of things that you are saying here that many EF enthusiasts constantly put forth.

 

[Lazerlike42]

Eric, I understand why you feel the way you do. It is no doubt very similar to how Catholics feel in the world - surrounded by people who look down on us for our love of God and His commands. It is no doubt even worse, for it is not the world that rejects you, but your own Catholic family. I believe you could probably recite Psalm 88 from your heart about this.

At the same time, I would ask you to consider the fact that these people behave this way to you. Why do you think they do it? They do so because traditionalists have a reputation. It is unfortunate, for so many of them do not deserve it. I have come across many traditionalists here who are a joy to converse with. This forum has restored much of my impression of traditionalist Catholics, and dhas indeed reinvigorated the tremendous interest I once had in the EF which was destroyed by working briefly in a shop owned by a traditionalist and frequented by traditionalists of a very negative attitude.

So Eric, don’t fall into that! Be a part of the solution - a light for the world! There are many traditionalists who very quietly practice their faith, and some who respectfully try to promote the EF and other traditional practices. Be one of these. The problem is that those in the traditionalsit movement who are most vocal are also most angry, harsh, negative, and even dishonest. Don’t be one of those.

There is a difference between saying that Traditionalists are wackos or such things and saying that 95% of OF Masses are clown Masses or other blasphemies. One is, while not necessarily polite, based on the perception that has been created by a vocal group of traditionalists who are perhaps justly categorized by these words. The other is a gross exageration which I am fairly confident you know is not true. If you have been called wacko by 1,000 people for your love of the EF, it is not the same thing as making an objectively false statement about the OF, and I think you know that.

If you love the EF, then let your love show as love - not hatred, anger, or frustration. I can tell you that it is very difficult for many orthodox Catholics who desire greatly to love the Lord, to consider a rite of Mass the most vocal proponents of which seem not to have been benefited at all by its Grace. If the Mass does not make one Holy, then why ought we to consider attending it? Don’t perpetuate this impression. Show us how the EF has truly filled you with the love of Christ. Show us how one can be obedient to the Church and yet love the EF. Show us how you have met Christ there, and we will desire to join you.

God bless!

 

[Eric_Olsen]

Well sir, again…you have not walked in my shoes.
I would be happy to be part of the solution but it seems that so many people fail to look back at history and see why we got were we are today.

I think most of the bitter traditionalists are people like the SSPX, etc. I DO NOT associate with those groups.

I am not a bitter person but become so when I see so many abuses done and get ridiculed when I bring them up to who I think are the people who should know better( priests, nuns, etc ). And especially when people who are supposed to be good Catholic Christians look at me like I am retarded because I prefer the old mass.

I do question why novous ordo mass was created when the people did not want a new mass and many fled the church after its introduction. When I read why it was so, it makes me wonder who really was in charge of the Vatican at the time?

Finally, I think somebody needs to go back and reread the original documents of Vatican II in Latin whether it be the pope or whoever and proclaim what the real intent of the council was.
I am not trying to start trouble but would like some serious dialog with those who feel the novous ordo was needed.

God bless,

Eric

Eric, I understand why you feel the way you do. It is no doubt very similar to how Catholics feel in the world - surrounded by people who look down on us for our love of God and His commands. It is no doubt even worse, for it is not the world that rejects you, but your own Catholic family. I believe you could probably recite Psalm 88 from your heart about this.

At the same time, I would ask you to consider the fact that these people behave this way to you. Why do you think they do it? They do so because traditionalists have a reputation. It is unfortunate, for so many of them do not deserve it. I have come across many traditionalists here who are a joy to converse with. This forum has restored much of my impression of traditionalist Catholics, and dhas indeed reinvigorated the tremendous interest I once had in the EF which was destroyed by working briefly in a shop owned by a traditionalist and frequented by traditionalists of a very negative attitude.

So Eric, don’t fall into that! Be a part of the solution - a light for the world! There are many traditionalists who very quietly practice their faith, and some who respectfully try to promote the EF and other traditional practices. Be one of these. The problem is that those in the traditionalsit movement who are most vocal are also most angry, harsh, negative, and even dishonest. Don’t be one of those.

There is a difference between saying that Traditionalists are wackos or such things and saying that 95% of OF Masses are clown Masses or other blasphemies. One is, while not necessarily polite, based on the perception that has been created by a vocal group of traditionalists who are perhaps justly categorized by these words. The other is a gross exageration which I am fairly confident you know is not true. If you have been called wacko by 1,000 people for your love of the EF, it is not the same thing as making an objectively false statement about the OF, and I think you know that.

If you love the EF, then let your love show as love - not hatred, anger, or frustration. I can tell you that it is very difficult for many orthodox Catholics who desire greatly to love the Lord, to consider a rite of Mass the most vocal proponents of which seem not to have been benefited at all by its Grace. If the Mass does not make one Holy, then why ought we to consider attending it? Don’t perpetuate this impression. Show us how the EF has truly filled you with the love of Christ. Show us how one can be obedient to the Church and yet love the EF. Show us how you have met Christ there, and we will desire to join you.

God bless!

 

[Lazerlike42]

Eric - I don’t need to walk in your shoes. It doesn’t matter what you’ve been through, it doesn’t give you the right or a reason to fragrantly misrepresent the Holy Mass of whatever right, or to behave bitterly or angrily.

None of us have walked in Jesus Christ’s shoes. Whatever you or I or anyone else have suffered, it can’t compare, and when all was said and done, He forgave those who had done evil to Him - He didn’t angrily or bitterly cry out against them.

If you really want to be a part of the solution, then don’t act like those who are part of the problem. Don’t say things like, “95% of OF Masses are like these clown Masses I have linked,” and don’t say that those Masses are what the Pauline Mass is when you admittedly know that this is not what it is supposed to be.

If you want to have a rational dialogue with folks who like the Pauline Mass, you have to criticize it for what it is, not on the basis of abuses that do not represent it.

I haven’t walked in your shoes. But you haven’t walked in mine, either. You haven’t been declared a heretic left and right just because you happen to like the Pauline Mass, or condemned for saying that you think Vatican II was needed. You haven’t experienced the abject hatred that I and many others have on the part of some traditionalists.

I have, but I don’t label all traditionalists alike. I have, but rather than condemning you, I prayed to the Holy Spirit on this Eve of Pentecost and tried to address you with love and compassion, even though you remind me of those who have condemned and hated me.

That is how to be part of the solution. That is how to show forth the fruit of the Spirit that you receive from the Holy Eucharist in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass which we are all discussing. So I understand, Eric, and I have walked in shoes very similar to your own, and I am telling you that you don’t need to react angrily, and that in fact doing so doesn’t help the EF at all but only hurts it. Be part of the solution. Walk in Christ’s footsteps, as you are formed in His image by your baptism.

Peace and God bless

 

[Eric_Olsen]

Eric - I don’t need to walk in your shoes. It doesn’t matter what you’ve been through, it doesn’t give you the right or a reason to fragrantly misrepresent the Holy Mass of whatever right, or to behave bitterly or angrily.

None of us have walked in Jesus Christ’s shoes. Whatever you or I or anyone else have suffered, it can’t compare, and when all was said and done, He forgave those who had done evil to Him - He didn’t angrily or bitterly cry out against them.
If you really want to be a part of the solution, then don’t act like those who are part of the problem. Don’t say things like, “95% of OF Masses are like these clown Masses I have linked,” and don’t say that those Masses are what the Pauline Mass is when you admittedly know that this is not what it is supposed to be.

I think you are now taking my words out of context.
I said 95% of the masses are abused in my opinion and didnt say they were all like clown masses, etc.

If you want to have a rational dialogue with folks who like the Pauline Mass, you have to criticize it for what it is, not on the basis of abuses that do not represent it.

It’s kind of hard not to notice the abuses.

I haven’t walked in your shoes. But you haven’t walked in mine, either. You haven’t been declared a heretic left and right just because you happen to like the Pauline Mass, or condemned for saying that you think Vatican II was needed. You haven’t experienced the abject hatred that I and many others have on the part of some traditionalists.

well whoever called you a herectic is probably part of a SSPX sect or worse. None of the people I know that attend the traditional mass call people herectics that go to the novous ordo. Some of us criticize it for the abuses that are shoved down the laity’s throat.

I have, but I don’t label all traditionalists alike. I have, but rather than condemning you, I prayed to the Holy Spirit on this Eve of Pentecost and tried to address you with love and compassion, even though you remind me of those who have condemned and hated me.

thanks for the prayers but you do not know me personally so don’t even begin to label me. How about praying for the people that condemn me for going to the traditional mass?

That is how to be part of the solution. That is how to show forth the fruit of the Spirit that you receive from the Holy Eucharist in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass which we are all discussing. So I understand, Eric, and I have walked in shoes very similar to your own, and I am telling you that you don’t need to react angrily, and that in fact doing so doesn’t help the EF at all but only hurts it. Be part of the solution. Walk in Christ’s footsteps, as you are formed in His image by your baptism.

Peace and God bless

but what makes you think the traditionalists that I am part of dont pray for the restoration? I do pray for it and I am grateful for what the pope has done in his MP.

 

[puzzleannie]

my guess is the vast majority of Catholics alive today under the age of 50 have never participated in either a charismatic Mass under the OF, or in a TLM, so those making such arguments suggested by thread title are in the minority, and nobody else cares.

 

[Sarpedon]

my guess is the vast majority of Catholics alive today under the age of 50 have never participated in either a charismatic Mass under the OF, or in a TLM, so those making such arguments suggested by thread title are in the minority, and nobody else cares.

Perhaps so, but those that do care sometimes make quite a lot of noise.

 

[ethelzguy]

Thats great but unfortunately 95% of the masses today are what I listed. I cant recall how many times I have been to a novous ordo mass that was done right.

Again, subjective opinion used to denigrate one form of the Mass.

It is not for the laity to determine what is “proper” in the Mass.

 

[Sarpedon]

You could just as easily have a “clown” EF as a “clown” OF- its easy enough to go against either set of rubrics.