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Rachaeld
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Hey guys, as the title suggests, do Catholics believe this set of canon is of equal inspiration from God?
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Fauken
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Yes, hence the term deuterocanon.Hey guys, as the title suggests, do Catholics believe this set of canon is of equal inspiration from God?
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commenter
Guest
In college I met someone who asked me to prove the doctrine of Purgatory, so I researched it, found the reference, then when I saw her I tried to show her in her Bible. But the book was missing!
In my 20s I was very interested in why Catholics and Protestants had different Old Testaments. But in later years I am much more interested in why Catholics and Protestants have the same New Testaments.
There’s nothing in the Bible that proves which books ought to be in the old testament or new testament. The scholars different in their opinions, so that’s not a basis for the average person either. Even if you had a doctoral degree in ancient Hebrew and Greek grammar, that means little if you don’t know what an “inspired” book is supposed to look like. There is no template.
So Catholics and Protestants are basing their canon choice on another factor.
In my 20s I was very interested in why Catholics and Protestants had different Old Testaments. But in later years I am much more interested in why Catholics and Protestants have the same New Testaments.
There’s nothing in the Bible that proves which books ought to be in the old testament or new testament. The scholars different in their opinions, so that’s not a basis for the average person either. Even if you had a doctoral degree in ancient Hebrew and Greek grammar, that means little if you don’t know what an “inspired” book is supposed to look like. There is no template.
So Catholics and Protestants are basing their canon choice on another factor.
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Wesrock
Guest
Not entirely relevant, but the introduction to Sirach is not considered inspired itself (it’s basically the grandson of the original author of Sirach introducing the work he’s transcribing), but it’s kept for its antiquity and relation to the original work.
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steve-b
Guest
there is no separation (by title or by notation, or any other way to separate them) in our bible between the Deuteros and the other books of scripture. The Church says They are divinely inspiredHey guys, as the title suggests, do Catholics believe this set of canon is of equal inspiration from God?
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Exactly. The Table of Contents is itself not inspired.In college I met someone who asked me to prove the doctrine of Purgatory, so I researched it, found the reference, then when I saw her I tried to show her in her Bible. But the book was missing!
In my 20s I was very interested in why Catholics and Protestants had different Old Testaments. But in later years I am much more interested in why Catholics and Protestants have the same New Testaments.
There’s nothing in the Bible that proves which books ought to be in the old testament or new testament. The scholars different in their opinions, so that’s not a basis for the average person either. Even if you had a doctoral degree in ancient Hebrew and Greek grammar, that means little if you don’t know what an “inspired” book is supposed to look like. There is no template.
So Catholics and Protestants are basing their canon choice on another factor.
For us Catholics, that is not an issue because we believe the canon of Scripture is known solely by the authority of the Church.
For Protestants, the canon of scripture is a tradition of man, the very thing they reject, but no matter how then turn it over or what gymnastics they perform, the canon of Scripture comes from an authority outside of Scripture itself, which is why Sola Scriptura is from the outset a self-defeating proposition.
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Theprodigalson84j
Guest
It should be said that the deuterocanonical books were scripture since the Council of Carthage in 393 when every other book including the New Testament was canonized. Jerome had hesitations. Books that aren’t inspired made their way into the Vulgate as well, 3 and 4 Esdras( more commonly known today as 1 and 2 Esdras as Ezra and Nehemiah are 1 and 2 Esdras in the Vulgate), and the Prayer of Manessah, which since the Council of Trent are in an appendix to the Vulgate.
It should be noted the canon has played out differently in other churches. In the east the books above in the appendix to the Vulgate are many times scripture in Orthodox Churches, as well as 3 Maccabees. Psalm 151,and 4 Maccabees appears in an appendix to the Greek Bible.
The largest canon in the world is that of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, which includes the Book of Enoch, and the Book of Jubilees.
So the Canon can be anywhere from the 66 books of the Protestants which is erroneously false to the 73 of the Catholic, standard but not uniform 76 give or take books of the Eastern Orthodox, to the 81 of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.
Here is an example of the Canon of the Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox
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It should be noted the canon has played out differently in other churches. In the east the books above in the appendix to the Vulgate are many times scripture in Orthodox Churches, as well as 3 Maccabees. Psalm 151,and 4 Maccabees appears in an appendix to the Greek Bible.
The largest canon in the world is that of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, which includes the Book of Enoch, and the Book of Jubilees.
So the Canon can be anywhere from the 66 books of the Protestants which is erroneously false to the 73 of the Catholic, standard but not uniform 76 give or take books of the Eastern Orthodox, to the 81 of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.
Here is an example of the Canon of the Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
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Theprodigalson84j
Guest
Yah the NRSV w the deuterocanonical books explains it pretty well.
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adamhovey1988
Guest
Good question! The Church says they are, so, yes. They’re called Deuterocanonical, not because they’re any less important, but because of the debate with regards to their inspired status. The Church (thankfully) settled the question fairly early on. Now, if you don’t mind, let’s flip that question: Why should someone doubt that they are divinely inspired?
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otrrl
Guest
In Ben Wiker’s book on the Reformation he points out that “sola scriptura” was an argument developed by an atheist (marsilius of Padua) more than 200 years before Martin Luther. Luther had the same objective as the atheist, to oppose the authority of the Catholic Church.
Luther segregated some books to the back of the Bible, which were later dropped altogether. Luther apparently respected only those books which were known to him to have been composed in Hebrew or Aramaic. The discoveries of the Dead Sea Scrolls demonstrated that there were several traditions within Judaism (broadly defined) about which scrolls were inspired.
For the benefit of Jews outside of Canaan/Palestine who did not know Hebrew, Jewish scholars translated the inspired books into Greek, which should have given Luther a better idea of which books were considered inspired by those Jewish scholars before the time of Christ. Luther therefore used only the books which the Jews of his day considered inspired, the oldest copies of which dated only as far back as about 900 AD – until the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered.
When the New Testament says ( 2 Tim) that “all scripture is inspired” that is apparently referring to that Greek translation of the Jewish scriptures.
Luther segregated some books to the back of the Bible, which were later dropped altogether. Luther apparently respected only those books which were known to him to have been composed in Hebrew or Aramaic. The discoveries of the Dead Sea Scrolls demonstrated that there were several traditions within Judaism (broadly defined) about which scrolls were inspired.
For the benefit of Jews outside of Canaan/Palestine who did not know Hebrew, Jewish scholars translated the inspired books into Greek, which should have given Luther a better idea of which books were considered inspired by those Jewish scholars before the time of Christ. Luther therefore used only the books which the Jews of his day considered inspired, the oldest copies of which dated only as far back as about 900 AD – until the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered.
When the New Testament says ( 2 Tim) that “all scripture is inspired” that is apparently referring to that Greek translation of the Jewish scriptures.
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poche
Guest
If you read the Gospels you can see that the doctrine of Purgatory is implied. For example Jesus says that you will be imprisoned and you shall not leave until the last farthing is paid, while there is another punishment which is permanent.
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Rachaeld
Guest
I believe the Protestants have some sort of system… wasn’t it mostly due to not being able to find said books in the original Hebrew texts? Only in the LXX?
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adamhovey1988
Guest
The problem with that is, is that the Jewish people had not codified the Hebrew scriptures by the time that Christianity arose. Take into consideration, the Palestinian Jews, to this day, have a different Canon of scripture than Ethiopian Jews. Now, of course, that doesn’t prove anything, but it does show that there were differences of opinions with regards to what was considered Canon. Also, take into consideration, that the Septuagint was quoted quite a bit in the New Testament. My understanding, is that the deuterocanonical books were rejected, by a large proportion of the Jewish leaders, not because they weren’t inspired, but because the copies that they had were in Greek, and many of them were considered gentile tainted. It’s interesting, because they’ve actually found Hebrew copies of at least some of the deuterocanonical books, that predate the Greek versions that they would have had access to.
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steve-b
Guest
Re: “original Hebrews”, who is more Hebrew, more original than Jesus? Ergo, we need to distinguish which Hebrews we’re talking about. The Hebrews that accepted Jesus and the apostles, and those in union with THEM, accepted the LXX. Remember, the Catholic Church in it’s origin was 100% Hebrew. The Hebrews who didn’t accept Jesus and His Church established their own canon.I believe the Protestants have some sort of system… wasn’t it mostly due to not being able to find said books in the original Hebrew texts? Only in the LXX?
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