Are the documents of Vatican II the only untouchable Teachings?

[goout]

Yes, absolutely agree. There are quite a few posts that are popping up on this forum in reference to Vatican II.

The common theme seems to be, as someone described it, the Church has always thought A & B. Vatican II came along and said that in addition to A & B, the church now recognizes C.

The only problem is that C seems to contradict A& B. Yet the fault is not with C, it’s with those who are having trouble accepting C. Therefore everyone who disagrees with C is divisive and too traditionalist minded and not obedient to the magisterium.

So when it comes time to get clarification on what C means, we get several different interpretations. Lol

The Church is the mystical Body of Christ composed of unique individuals living in relationship with one another. In the human condition, there is confusion and sometimes chaos. There is miscommunication. There is also ill will and deception.

Expecting clarification to come quickly and easily is a CNN mentality. You don’t achieve clarity by demanding and receiving explanations. That’s not how unity comes about. This isn’t to say that we don’t have a responsibility to communicate well. We do.
But responsibility runs both ways. And when you are not in your sphere of influence or competence, you have no other choice but to be a good listener and learner. To be docile is a virtue in the Church. Docility asks for patience with others, and the humility to admit you might not understand something due to your own biases or capabilities, and accepting that others in authority might be fulfilling their responsibilities in ways you can’t accept.

Demanding clarity from others to your own standards is unrealistic, to say the least.

 

[umamibella]

Just recently a lady who is a very regular Mass goer told me that “the Mass isnt a Sacrifice any more, it’s a celebration of love”

Jesus on the Cross is a sacrifice out of His celebration of love for His creatures.
God is love.

 

[Maximian]

True. But Jesus is sacrificed at every Mass. This is what the lady was denying.

 

[Motherwit]

True. But Jesus is sacrificed at every Mass. This is what the lady was denying.

The way we accept it is not that “Jesus is sacrificed at every Mass” but that as a timeless Memorial, we partake in His once for all time sacrifice.

 

[commenter]

Maximian:

True. But Jesus is sacrificed at every Mass. This is what the lady was denying.

The way we accept it is not that “Jesus is sacrificed at every Mass” but that as a timeless Memorial, we partake in His once for all time sacrifice.

Or rather, through the ministry of the priest, the one, unique Sacrifice of Calvary is re-presented in an unbloody manner.

 

[Crusader13]

Demanding clarity from others to your own standards is unrealistic, to say the least.

Much of what you stated is a broad generalization of what the real issues are. I’m not implying that every little thing must be explained in order to satisfy my curiosity.

You speak of unity, but offer no explanation of what that entails. How are we brought together, if not by clarity and a right understanding of those beliefs by which we hold to?

Your entire statement seems to suggest that we don’t question anything that is fed to us, but merely submit to the magisterium and whatever they deem is the proper interpretation of doctrine.

Therefore, by your logic, I need to acquiesce to the James Martins of the Catholic world. Absolutely not!

In the absence of clarity and understanding, I’ll hold fast to the Traditions of our faith and the doctrines that bind us together. Not the new interpretations in light of the spirit of Vatican II.

 

[commenter]

Your entire statement seems to suggest that we don’t question anything that is fed to us, but merely submit to the magisterium and whatever they deem is the proper interpretation of doctrine…

In the absence of clarity and understanding, I’ll hold fast to the Traditions of our faith and the doctrines that bind us together.

In the long run the logic of your first paragraph I quoted undermines the logic of your second.

Few if any Protestants, and no Old Catholics, really began by practicing Sola Scriptura. They began by claiming to hold fast to genuine Tradition - in effect, popes, councils, and bishops interpreting prior to a certain year - but rejected only the current or recent magisterium. An example is Luther, who gradually came to accept less and less of Tradition - past popes and bishops. Others later went further back.

In the long run, the websites that attack the current magisterium really undermine Tradition, the interpretation of past individual popes and bishops who in their lifetime were the living Magisterium.

 

[ThomasMT]

Archbishop Vigano needs our prayers.

He does indeed, even if we don’t all share the same intentions.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

Pre-crisis, one of my coworkers (now in lockdown because of her age & health) and I would always be battling over VII, the TLM etc. If I cite anything before VII, she explodes like a volcano. Suffice it to say I only speak to her when necessary…

 

[Maximian]

Yes I had that recently in those very words not from a lapsed Catholic but from a woman who goes to daily Mass and has in the past considering entering a convent.