Are the Eastern and Oriental Churches in union or not?

[MysticStudent]

I’m confused about the whole ecumenical councils. I just became an Eastern Orthodox Christian a few months back and wanted to know the clear differences. I know it’s due to theology and the political part I’m trying to get to but to be honest I think the split over theology is absurd. The 2nd and 4th councils are a mystery and I’m starting to think the whole first 7 ecumenical councils are as well. So I’m kind of stuck between non chalcedonean and chalcedonean but I don’t see a reason for them not to be in unity besides political maybe. Please help me.

 

[RyanBlack]

The communion of churches known as the Oriental Orthodox, which includes the Coptic Orthodox, the Ethiopian Orthodox, the Eritrean Orthodox, the Armenian Orthodox, the Syrian Orthodox, and the Malankara Orthodox, are also called non-Chalcedonian, because they did not agree to the Council of Chalcedon, and went into schism at that time. They did not accept the Council of Chalcedon because they suspected aspects of the Tome of Leo as being Nestorian and were unable to reconcile the Definition of Chalcedon with the christology of St. Cyril of Alexandria. There christology is often referred to as miaphysite, so as to distinguish it from Eutychianism. Eutychianism, or monophysitism, which was condemned at Chalcedon, denies the humanity of Christ. The Oriental Orthodox do not deny Christ’s humanity, and never have. Following St. Cyril Alexandria, they speak of the union of the divine and human natures of our Lord using the formula μία φύσις τοῦ θεοῦ λόγου σεσαρκωμένη (“one nature of the Word of God incarnate”).

 

[MysticStudent]

Well I think I might be oriental but I think there is a problem with the ecumenical councils. A person can’t fully explain logically the nature of Christ or of the Trinity. I think if we out right reject the truth that Christ is fully God and fully Man then disunity is justified. So that means the monophysites, dyophysites, and etc are saying the same thing.

 

[neokarny]

Well I think I might be oriental but I think there is a problem with the ecumenical councils. A person can’t fully explain logically the nature of Christ or of the Trinity. I think if we out right reject the truth that Christ is fully God and fully Man then disunity is justified. So that means the monophysites, dyophysites, and etc are saying the same thing.

Many believe strongly that Oriental and Eastern Orthodox believe the same thing, and those like His Beatitude Patriarch John X are commmitted to restoring full sacramental unity with the non-Chalcedonians. The Antiochian Church already has limited intercommunion with the Syriac Orthodox, and other pastoral agreements that affirm our mutual Orthodoxy. IOW, the divide is mostly church politics and semantics. It’s being overcome slowly but surely.

Also, you said that you became Orthodox a few months ago but you think you might be Oriental. Were you received into a church or do you mean you personally identify as Orthodox?

 

[MysticStudent]

Many believe strongly that Oriental and Eastern Orthodox believe the same thing, and those like His Beatitude Patriarch John X are commmitted to restoring full sacramental unity with the non-Chalcedonians. The Antiochian Church already has limited intercommunion with the Syriac Orthodox, and other pastoral agreements that affirm our mutual Orthodoxy. IOW, the divide is mostly church politics and semantics. It’s being overcome slowly but surely.

Also, you said that you became Orthodox a few months ago but you think you might be Oriental. Were you received into a church or do you mean you personally identify as Orthodox?

I was a protestant before I personally identified my self as Eastern Orthodox I guess. I have not joined a church yet but am looking for one. I guess I don’t want to make things seem like a big deal when it’s not. Personally the Roman Catholic Church is out of the question of being a decision for me. Sometimes I feel bad because some don’t understand.

 

[ConstantineTG]

It is better to ask a priest with the Church you are interested in joining about these questions. While there are a number of people here he would do their best to give you the best answers as possible, there are also a number of people who would give you bad advice and lead you to more confusion. I think it is best that you have a face-to-face meeting with a priest.

 

[MysticStudent]

It is better to ask a priest with the Church you are interested in joining about these questions. While there are a number of people here he would do their best to give you the best answers as possible, there are also a number of people who would give you bad advice and lead you to more confusion. I think it is best that you have a face-to-face meeting with a priest.

The reason why I posted is to get alternative views on history or theology. But It’s okay thanks anyway I guess I’ll wait until next week.

 

[UncleBill]

I was a protestant before I personally identified my self as Eastern Orthodox I guess. I have not joined a church yet but am looking for one. I guess I don’t want to make things seem like a big deal when it’s not. Personally the Roman Catholic Church is out of the question of being a decision for me. Sometimes I feel bad because some don’t understand.

You may want to visit Holy Resurrection Monastery in St. Nazianz WI about an hour north of Milwaukee. I did a retreat there during Holy Week and Pascha.

They are Byzantine Catholic.

 

[malphono]

I was a protestant before I personally identified my self as Eastern Orthodox I guess. I have not joined a church yet but am looking for one. I guess I don’t want to make things seem like a big deal when it’s not. Personally the Roman Catholic Church is out of the question of being a decision for me. Sometimes I feel bad because some don’t understand.

It seems to me that it IS a big deal, since you won’t be able to fully participate until you are officially and formally received into a Church, be it EO/EC/OO/OC or, for that matter, even Latin. How one “personally identifies” is not the same thing, particularly when coming from a Protestant background.

OK, so much for my unsolicited :twocents: …

 

[amalthomas]

From my point of view, I think anglican church is better than any other church. It is most modern, bishops marry, and also priests marry. I think this concept is correct according to bible. From the letter of st paul to timothy, it is given that bishops and priests do have one wife.
What I found in catholic church and orthodox churches are that there is always competition for power. In the second millenium, there were 2 or three popes. Also orthodox churches had 2 or 3 patriarchs claiming at the same time. Some of the activities that happened in catholic church and also orthodox church make me think of this. Many immoral activities I was able to see in these churches.
So I think british culture and anglican church are suitable for a christian. If somebody gives an opinion, I would be grateful.

 

[neokarny]

From my point of view, I think anglican church is better than any other church. It is most modern, bishops marry, and also priests marry. I think this concept is correct according to bible. From the letter of st paul to timothy, it is given that bishops and priests do have one wife.
What I found in catholic church and orthodox churches are that there is always competition for power. In the second millenium, there were 2 or three popes. Also orthodox churches had 2 or 3 patriarchs claiming at the same time. Some of the activities that happened in catholic church and also orthodox church make me think of this. Many immoral activities I was able to see in these churches.
So I think british culture and anglican church are suitable for a christian. If somebody gives an opinion, I would be grateful.

I’m certain if you look at Anglican history you’ll see enough power struggles, scandals, controversies, etc. Just look at the break-aways of the Continuing Anglican Movement from the Canterbury Communion over issues like same-sex marriage, married same-sex clergy (a more recent topic), women ordination, etc. They are by no means exempt from scandal, just like the Orthodox and Catholics. Further, the celibate episcopacy is a universal practice found within every traditional apostolic branch of Christendom AFAIK - there is no reason to forego it just to “be modern.”

 

[amalthomas]

From my point of view, I think anglican church is better than any other church. It is most modern, bishops marry, and also priests marry. I think this concept is correct according to bible. From the letter of st paul to timothy, it is given that bishops and priests do have one wife.
What I found in catholic church and orthodox churches are that there is always competition for power. In the second millenium, there were 2 or three popes. Also orthodox churches had 2 or 3 patriarchs claiming at the same time. Some of the activities that happened in catholic church and also orthodox church make me think of this. Many immoral activities I was able to see in these churches.
So I think british culture and anglican church are suitable for a christian. If somebody gives an opinion, I would be grateful.

Also, what I found in many of the catholic dioceses is that almost 99% of the priests are looking to the bishop’s post. I think this comes from their celibacy. Since they have no family, they lead such a holy life that most of them think that they are suitable for the bishop’s post. So there comes the struggle for power and many of the priests jeolous on their bishops, not obedient to them, in cases where the bishop is a young man.
Also in orthodox churches, though priests marry, many of the monks looking to the bishop’s position.

 

[neokarny]

Also, what I found in many of the catholic dioceses is that almost 99% of the priests are looking to the bishop’s post. I think this comes from their celibacy. Since they have no family, they lead such a holy life that most of them think that they are suitable for the bishop’s post. So there comes the struggle for power and many of the priests jeolous on their bishops, not obedient to them, in cases where the bishop is a young man.
Also in orthodox churches, though priests marry, many of the monks looking to the bishop’s position.

Celibacy, or lack of, isn’t going to stop someone that’s power-hungry from trying to attain it. It just doesn’t follow that letting them marry would suddenly make them not seek power.

 

[skeyes]

I am Catholic and I have never heard a Priest “looking to the Bishop’s seat”. I don’t think every priest Catholic or Orthodox want to be Bishop. Most Priest, I think, are happy being shepherds of the flock assigned to them. Just my observances.

Stan

 

[ronyodish]

From my point of view, I think anglican church is better than any other church.

amalthomas,

You should stick to your Syro-Malabar Catholic Church, the Eastern Church of your Fathers, the Church of St. Thomas the Apostle.

Forget about these separated Anglicans, they are not a Church in our Holy Communion of Catholic Churches.

Stick with the Holy Tradition which you have received, do not flirt with the outsiders.

God bless,

Rony

 

[Aramis]

I’m confused about the whole ecumenical councils. I just became an Eastern Orthodox Christian a few months back and wanted to know the clear differences. I know it’s due to theology and the political part I’m trying to get to but to be honest I think the split over theology is absurd. The 2nd and 4th councils are a mystery and I’m starting to think the whole first 7 ecumenical councils are as well. So I’m kind of stuck between non chalcedonean and chalcedonean but I don’t see a reason for them not to be in unity besides political maybe. Please help me.

Some of each have come into union; portions of most of those broke away and stayed in schism.

 

[ConstantineTG]

The reason why I posted is to get alternative views on history or theology. But It’s okay thanks anyway I guess I’ll wait until next week.

Well, alternate views often lead to confusion. While I did do a lot of forum discussions when I was discerning conversion, I did have a number of face-to-face sessions with my priest to ask questions. Also I did go and find answers from more credible sources, like books, or even Ancient Faith Radio podcasts.

 

[SyroMalankara]

From my point of view, I think anglican church is better than any other church. It is most modern, bishops marry, and also priests marry. I think this concept is correct according to bible. From the letter of st paul to timothy, it is given that bishops and priests do have one wife.

Oh yeah, they’re great Amal - if you are in Africa, you can marry multiple women; in the US/Canada/Europe you can marry a man; in Sydney they are overly evangelical protestant - the bishop wear a suit and tie; in England they are wannabe Latin Catholics in appearance; in India they ordain women - except in Central Kerala where it’s forbidden. Did I mention most of the South Indian Anglican Bishops are being investigated for corruption and fraud - some have even been indicted for stealing funds from Tsunami victims and hiding it in personal assets?

What I found in catholic church and orthodox churches are that there is always competition for power. In the second millenium, there were 2 or three popes. Also orthodox churches had 2 or 3 patriarchs claiming at the same time. Some of the activities that happened in catholic church and also orthodox church make me think of this. Many immoral activities I was able to see in these churches.

Which part of Anglican conquesting abroad and subduing the local Christians under their doctrine is appealing to you? Think of the Marthoma protestant sect (which also has celibate bishops by the way) and their heresies, as well as their CSI/CNI counterparts in India.

So I think british culture and anglican church are suitable for a christian. If somebody gives an opinion, I would be grateful.

You have some strange notions of what is Christianity - are you sure you are Syro-Malabar Catholic?

 

[kevin_bern]

Oh yeah, they’re great Amal - if you are in Africa, you can marry multiple women; in the US/Canada/Europe you can marry a man; in Sydney they are overly evangelical protestant - the bishop wear a suit and tie; in England they are wannabe Latin Catholics in appearance; in India they ordain women - except in Central Kerala where it’s forbidden. Did I mention most of the South Indian Anglican Bishops are being investigated for corruption and fraud - some have even been indicted for stealing funds from Tsunami victims and hiding it in personal assets?
Which part of Anglican conquesting abroad and subduing the local Christians under their doctrine is appealing to you? Think of the Marthoma protestant sect (which also has celibate bishops by the way) and their heresies, as well as their CSI/CNI counterparts in India.
You have some strange notions of what is Christianity - are you sure you are Syro-Malabar Catholic?

Dear Syromalankara,
You dislike protestants and marthomites. i don’t know much about them.
But consider some statements made by head of the syro malankara catholic church, cardinal cleemis during an interview. Cardinal cleemis remembers an encounter with former head of the marthoma syrian church, philipose mor chrysostom. During that event head of the marthoma syrian church pointed towards cardinal cleemis and said, “Although he is a catholic, he is good”.
Dear syromalankara, why did head of the marthoma church who is 96 years old now and was bishop for 60 years said like this. What do say about these words on catholics.

Also consider the words of bristish prime minister, david cameroon. cameroon said that british society is the real example of christian life depicted in bible. In his speech, he was pointing towards some of the anti muslim laws passed in a catholic nation like france. france passed laws banning burkha wearing of islamic women there and may be some other measures. is it due to the fact the catholic church in france fears islam? cameroon said that britain has no such fear. everyone in britain has their freedom and christianty in britain is never under threat. this is the reason why one may get leniant towards anglican church.