Are the ECs "Orthodox who are in communion with Rome," or are they "Roman Catholics with an Orthodox Liturgy"?

[ConstantineTG]

Any Christian is considered an Orthodox or Apostolic Christian if he/she:

1. Confesses the Holy Faith of the Apostles, and lives the Moral Life.
2. Celebrates the Holy Mysteries.
3. Is in Full and Canonical Communion with a Bishop in Apostolic Succession.

Those three points are all that is necessary for Orthodoxy/Apostolicity.

Catholics already subsume Orthodoxy/Apostolicity, since we already have those three points above, but we go a step further, in that, our Full and Canonical Communion with the Pope of Rome as the Head Bishop of the Body of Bishops elevates our already Orthodox and Apostolic status to a Catholic status.

So, I would say that all Catholics, not just the Easterns/Orientals, but Latins as well, are Orthodox and Apostolics in Communion with Rome!

But in order not to offend the Eastern Orthodox, I prefer to just label myself as an Eastern Catholic.

God bless,

Rony

I hope you realize that point #1 is highly contested here. The Orthodox believe that Rome and all those in communion with her has diverged from what the Apostles taught. So while your qualifiers are true, don’t think that #1 just broadly applies to everyone.

 

[ronyodish]

I hope you realize that point #1 is highly contested here. The Orthodox believe that Rome and all those in communion with her has diverged from what the Apostles taught. So while your qualifiers are true, don’t think that #1 just broadly applies to everyone.

ConstantineTG,

I understand that the Eastern Orthodox believe that all of us in the Catholic Communion have diverged from the Apostolic teachings. Other groups, like the Protestants, believe the same thing about us. We can not control what others think of us, but we can control what we think of ourselves, and what we think of others.

My point was to bring the Catholic perspective of who we think is Orthodox and Apostolic. In regards to ourselves, the Catholic Church teaches that she is One and Orthodox in her Faith, Holy in her Saints and Mysteries, Catholic in her Church and Communion, and Apostolic in her Origin and Succession. The Catholic Church acknowledges that the Church of Christ subsists in her.

With regards to others, like the Eastern Orthodox for example, we acknowledge that they are built upon the Orthodox Faith, and maintain the Apostolic Succession. We acknowledge that their Holy Mysteries are holy indeed and life-giving. We can not say the same thing about some other groups, like the Protestants.

So, point #1 does not broadly apply to everyone. From our perspective, it only applies (and collectively along with points #2 and #3) to certain Christian groups whom we deem to have maintained those points.

God bless,

Rony

 

[CDB1718]

There are fundamental disagreements that you really can’t say you accept both. Fundamentally, you cannot accept everything the Orthodox teaches and choose to be in communion with Rome because a number of Orthodox beliefs specifically prevents them from being in communion with Rome.

Maybe the disagreements you’re holding to will prove to be the innovations of people who happen to be Orthodox and they aren’t really Orthodox teachings at all. I’m told that there’s no way of knowing in the Orthodox model except to wait and see what the church accepts. So if the bishops declare union with Rome, you were wrong. If they don’t, maybe you’re right. The best any Orthodox can do is follow his conscience and hope that God will bring about unity both within Orthodoxy and between the Orthodox Churches and the rest of Christiandom so the faithful aren’t put in this position.

 

[nickybr38]

It is confusing, and there are many opinions to it. Thing is, if you feel that whatever you’re getting from your EC parish is bringing you closer to God, then why worry? The whole reason where Christians is because we want to be with God and be saved from this fallen world.

I intend to attend both sides (East and West). And I am aware there are some who think this is borderline scandalous but honestly in the Latin Rite my spirit sings and in the Divine Liturgy my spirit is at peace. So why deny myself one or the other? God has given me these gifts, why wouldn’t I take them?



Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut though. Confusing as it all is I kind of expected that. CAF is usually a bag of confusion. LOL. But there are always gems within the maze.

 

[UncleBill]

I hope you realize that point #1 is highly contested here. ***The Orthodox believe that Rome and all those in communion with her has diverged from what the Apostles taught. *** So while your qualifiers are true, don’t think that #1 just broadly applies to everyone.

Can you please let me in on just which Orthodox these are. As stated above most if not all Orthodox bishops including the last Patriarch of Constantinople have personally told me that the Catholic Church **IS **orthodox…we are just not in communion yet.

Other then rabid anti catholic layfolks( usually former catholic or protestants) and a monk or 2 on Athos I have yet to encounter these Orthodox you speek of.

Guess I’ve just been lucky in my 40+years of ecumenical dialog with the Orthodox.

 

[ConstantineTG]

ConstantineTG,

I understand that the Eastern Orthodox believe that all of us in the Catholic Communion have diverged from the Apostolic teachings. Other groups, like the Protestants, believe the same thing about us. We can not control what others think of us, but we can control what we think of ourselves, and what we think of others.

My point was to bring the Catholic perspective of who we think is Orthodox and Apostolic. In regards to ourselves, the Catholic Church teaches that she is One and Orthodox in her Faith, Holy in her Saints and Mysteries, Catholic in her Church and Communion, and Apostolic in her Origin and Succession. The Catholic Church acknowledges that the Church of Christ subsists in her.

With regards to others, like the Eastern Orthodox for example, we acknowledge that they are built upon the Orthodox Faith, and maintain the Apostolic Succession. We acknowledge that their Holy Mysteries are holy indeed and life-giving. We can not say the same thing about some other groups, like the Protestants.

So, point #1 does not broadly apply to everyone. From our perspective, it only applies (and collectively along with points #2 and #3) to certain Christian groups whom we deem to have maintained those points.

God bless,

Rony

But that is the thing, we don’t teach the same thing. So only one of us teaches what the Apostles taught. It can’t be both of us. We shouldn’t see Apostolic Succession in just the mechanical sense of the laying of hands. It is important that the true Apostolic faith also accompanies the person who has received a laying of hands.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Can you please let me in on just which Orthodox these are. As stated above most if not all Orthodox bishops including the last Patriarch of Constantinople have personally told me that the Catholic Church **IS **orthodox…we are just not in communion yet.

Other then rabid anti catholic layfolks( usually former catholic or protestants) and a monk or 2 on Athos I have yet to encounter these Orthodox you speek of.

Guess I’ve just been lucky in my 40+years of ecumenical dialog with the Orthodox.

It is that kind of dishonesty that is actually preventing us from achieving union. Because we pretend that we are already in agreement, when in truth we are not, that is why we can’t figure out why we can’t come into communion.

The point of bringing out the difference is for us to realize they are there and work on them. People like you who like to sweep these under the rug and pretend that there are no differences are actually the ones who are deterrents to any union. There is a problem and to fix it we need to recognize what the problem was. If we sweep the problem under the rug, the problem is still there. Even if we achieve a union that way, the foundations of such union is shaky and will only lead to certain schism again in a short time.

 

[UncleBill]

But that is the thing, we don’t teach the same thing. So only one of us teaches what the Apostles taught. It can’t be both of us. We shouldn’t see Apostolic Succession in just the mechanical sense of the laying of hands. It is important that the true Apostolic faith also accompanies the person who has received a laying of hands.

Boy CONSTANTINE for someone who has been Orthodox for less than 10 min. You certainly do have a few opinions!

I always find it interesting how someone who had been defending the Catholic Church for so long is do quick to throw Her under the bus.

 

[UncleBill]

It is that kind of dishonesty that is actually preventing us from achieving union. Because we pretend that we are already in agreement, when in truth we are not, that is why we can’t figure out why we can’t come into communion.

The point of bringing out the difference is for us to realize they are there and work on them. People like you who like to sweep these under the rug and pretend that there are no differences are actually the ones who are deterrents to any union. There is a problem and to fix it we need to recognize what the problem was. If we sweep the problem under the rug, the problem is still there. Even if we achieve a union that way, the foundations of such union is shaky and will only lead to certain schism again in a short time.

And you believe that in the first 1000 years there was this 100 unity in belief? Don’t kid yourself!

 

[malphono]

More please.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Boy CONSTANTINE for someone who has been Orthodox for less than 10 min. You certainly do have a few opinions!

I always find it interesting how someone who had been defending the Catholic Church for so long is do quick to throw Her under the bus.

I may have been Chrismated only recently, but I have been on this journey much longer than you think.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

And therein lies the problem…the Eastern Catholic Churches are supposed to be like Orthodoxy in everything except communion with Rome…however, in practice this is rarely the case…

In that idea there really does lie a problem, since there are substantial doctrinal differences between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church. That means serious implications for someone who belongs to one Church and believes the doctrines of the other.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

It is that kind of dishonesty that is actually preventing us from achieving union. Because we pretend that we are already in agreement, when in truth we are not, that is why we can’t figure out why we can’t come into communion.

The point of bringing out the difference is for us to realize they are there and work on them. People like you who like to sweep these under the rug and pretend that there are no differences are actually the ones who are deterrents to any union. There is a problem and to fix it we need to recognize what the problem was. If we sweep the problem under the rug, the problem is still there. Even if we achieve a union that way, the foundations of such union is shaky and will only lead to certain schism again in a short time.

I’m afraid I have to agree with you here.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I’m afraid I have to agree with you here.

I’m an IT guy, what can I say? One time we had problems with laptops in the office just going into the blue screen of death. My boss had the support guys monitor and test for weeks on end. I was thinking time, can’t we just back up the data, reformat the hard drive, then sent the other guy on his way? It’s faster, and the problem will probably go away. Then this is where I learned this lesson. Sure, that may fix the problem, but you don’t know what caused the problem. So you can’t prevent the problem from happening again.

When we fix things we shouldn’t just fix the things we see visibly right now, we need to go to the root and cut off the problem from the root. Like a weed in your garden, if you don’t pull the root out, it will just keep growing back.

Our Churches have at least 1000 years of bickering. Do we seriously believe it can just be resolved by, “hey, there’s really no problem, we should just reunite.” Even with the Oriental Orthodox where we have less disagreements with, there are still many minor knots to untie before communion can be restored. I don’t know why people think that the Catholic-Orthodox communion can just be restored in the blink of an eye. We need to be realistic, and we need to be honest. We shouldn’t be afraid to say what are the problems and we should not be afraid to have our guts punched from time to time when we hear what the problems are. If we avoid this because we think its wrong to hurt each other’s feelings, then we’re not really solving any of the problems.

 

[ConstantineTG]

And you believe that in the first 1000 years there was this 100 unity in belief? Don’t kid yourself!

Of course not, that is why we are where we are. Do you think that because we stayed in communion for a while it means that we can be in communion again today amidst disagreements and expect that it will be a lasting communion? You already saw what happened, it lead to a schism. Why do you want to go back to that?

 

[Aelred_Minor]

I’m an IT guy, what can I say? One time we had problems with laptops in the office just going into the blue screen of death. My boss had the support guys monitor and test for weeks on end. I was thinking time, can’t we just back up the data, reformat the hard drive, then sent the other guy on his way? It’s faster, and the problem will probably go away. Then this is where I learned this lesson. Sure, that may fix the problem, but you don’t know what caused the problem. So you can’t prevent the problem from happening again.

When we fix things we shouldn’t just fix the things we see visibly right now, we need to go to the root and cut off the problem from the root. Like a weed in your garden, if you don’t pull the root out, it will just keep growing back.

Our Churches have at least 1000 years of bickering. Do we seriously believe it can just be resolved by, “hey, there’s really no problem, we should just reunite.” Even with the Oriental Orthodox where we have less disagreements with, there are still many minor knots to untie before communion can be restored. I don’t know why people think that the Catholic-Orthodox communion can just be restored in the blink of an eye. We need to be realistic, and we need to be honest. We shouldn’t be afraid to say what are the problems and we should not be afraid to have our guts punched from time to time when we hear what the problems are. If we avoid this because we think its wrong to hurt each other’s feelings, then we’re not really solving any of the problems.

True. At the same time, to bring things around to a constructive note, there are real misunderstandings that can be cleared up. Orthodox and even Eastern Catholics often think Original Sin means personal guilt being passed down the generations. Of course it does not mean that. Or I read a statement on the website of an Orthodox monastery near me, condemning the Catholic Church for this and that, and almost nothing of it actually corresponded to Catholic beliefs or practices. I’m sure there are analogous ways in which Westerners often misunderstand the East. Perhaps the idea of Eastern Christian mysticism being a lot of esoteric autosuggestion like in Hinduism would be an example.

At the same time there is this other kind of misunderstanding, thinking we agree when we do not, or thinking the differences do not matter when they do. And failing, as you suggest, to identify the root causes of the disagreements.

If we clear up both kinds of misunderstandings, have an authentic Christian love for one another, and work together on issues we do agree on in the wider society, then I think we will finally be ready to begin real ecumenical dialogue.

 

[Paul_theApostle]

I’m afraid I have to agree with you here.

As a Catholic u believe your church is fully orthodox(right believing)

but the Eastern Orthodox don’t believe Rome is orthodox…

If Rome IS truly orthodox ,then the obstacle to union is the lack of belief ,trust,acceptance and recognition of Rome to be orthodox by the Eastern Orthodox who refuse to commune with the ‘heteredox’

 

[CompSciGuy]

And you believe that in the first 1000 years there was this 100 unity in belief? Don’t kid yourself!

I second this. Whatever differences there are between Catholics and Orthodox, they got along just fine for the first 1000 years or so. The split was pure politics.

 

[ronyodish]

But that is the thing, we don’t teach the same thing. So only one of us teaches what the Apostles taught. It can’t be both of us. We shouldn’t see Apostolic Succession in just the mechanical sense of the laying of hands. It is important that the true Apostolic faith also accompanies the person who has received a laying of hands.

ConstantineTG,

I don’t see Apostolic Succession in only a mechanical sense of laying on of hands. I do agree that the True Apostolic Faith must also accompany and be transmitted to that person.

When I state that the Eastern Orthodox possess an Apostolic Succession, I am also stating that the True Apostolic Faith is also being accompanied/transmitted. I hold the same for the Oriental Orthodox, and also the Assyrian Church of the East, who not only possess the Apostolic Succession, but also the True Apostolic Faith that comes with the succession.

For example, with regards the Assyrian Church of the East, the Catholic Church in the document Guidelines for Admission to the Eucharist between the Chaldean Church and the Assyrian Church of the East, recognizes the Assyrian Church “as a true particular Church, built upon orthodox faith and apostolic succession” (sec. 3, par. 3)

Likewise, the Vatican II’s Decree on Ecumenism states that with regards the separated Eastern Churches, these "Churches, although separated from us, possess true sacraments, above all by apostolic succession, the priesthood and the Eucharist, whereby they are linked with us in closest intimacy.” (sec. 15, par. 3).

The Vatican II’s Dogmatic Constitution on the Church goes on to explain what is meant by Apostolic Succession in section 20, in that, the transmission of the Gospel is to endure until the end of time, and this by means of the successors to the Apostles. So, the succession is not a mere mechanical activity, rather, it involves the transmission of the Divine Mission.

Now, our problem with these groups is not their Orthodoxy (Truthiness) and not their Apostolicity (Authenticity), rather, it is their lack of Catholicity that we are working to overcome. It is their isolation from the Whole, from the General, from the Universal Church that we are working to overcome.

From your perspective, we are not True (Orthodox). From our perspective, you are True (Orthodox), but isolated (non-Catholic, non-Universal, non-General, non-Whole).

God bless,

Rony

 

[Jordan_Rizk]

I personally believe an Eastern Catholic is someone Orthodox who is in communion with Rome.