O
odile53
Guest
@ Brother JR–^ pretty good–LOL!
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jwinch2
Guest
Brother,
One thing which comes to mind as a question is the internal structure of the SJ. You mentioned that Jesuit Priests function quite autonomously for the most part. However, there must be some internal structure or hierarchy which serves as a way for superiors to lead, correct, and make decisions regarding the direction of the order.
Am I off on that?
One thing which comes to mind as a question is the internal structure of the SJ. You mentioned that Jesuit Priests function quite autonomously for the most part. However, there must be some internal structure or hierarchy which serves as a way for superiors to lead, correct, and make decisions regarding the direction of the order.
Am I off on that?
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chevalier
Guest
I would carefully check their theological position before getting involved with Jesuits in a particular country. Some of the Polish ones openly allow people to use contraception. I’ve mailed the proper authorities and am waiting for response.
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JReducation
Guest
Not being a Jesuit, I don’t have access to their constitutions and I believe they may not be public documents. Many communities do not make their constitutions public. There is not hard rule about this. It’s really up to them to do so or not.
What I know about their infrastructure, I know from Jesuits themselves. They are divided into provinces. Each provincial is appointed by the Superior General. Each provincial has the same authority as a bishop. This makes him an Ordinary. Essentially, this means that you report to your provincial superior, not to the local bishop.
If you work for a diocese, you follow diocesan policies, like any other diocesan employee as long as those policies do not conflict with the constitutions of the SJ. Bishops understand this going in, because it’s pretty much the same for every religious community that has the Right of Exemption. If a bishop hands over a parish to the SJ, there are boundaries. The SJ must run the parish according to diocesan policies and procedures, except those policies that are in conflict with their constitutions. At that point, their constitutions take precedence. The faithful of that parish will comply with the SJ or find another parish.
Bishops are very good about this. Before they hand over a parish or a school to a religious community, there is a dialogue so that there are no misunderstandings later. Agreements are reached. Once it has been handed over to them, the bishop cannot pull out of the arrangement without a dialogue with the Provincial Superior. These are two Ordinaries of equal authority, even though they are not of equal rank.
This is hard to understand. Equal authority means that the Provincial Superior governs his men, not the bishop. The bishop grants them faculties to operate in his diocese. The day to day life and work of the Jesuits is governed by the consitutions. It is the duty of the Pronvincial Superior to see to it that these constitutions are followed. The men are allowed whatever freedoms are in these constitutions and not allowed whatever is prohibitted by them.
Here is another interesting detail that I recently found out by listening to Fr. Mitch. Everyone complains about heterodoxy at Jesuit colleges and universities. Well, the Jesuits do not control their colleges and universities. These insitutions are run by Boards of Trustees and private corporations. The Jesuits founded them. They own the property, but they do not own the school. The school has its own government. When a professor or an administration of one of these schools goes down a wrong path, the Jesuit Provincial has not authority to stop it. Nor can he replace a disident Jesuit with an orthodox one at one of these schools. To teach at these schools, the Jesuits have to apply for the job, like any other professor and go through the same hoops as any othe professor. To remain employed, he must comply with its policies like any othe professor. A Pronvincial can pull a man out, but he cannot put another one in his place. A vacancy is created and the school proceeds to interview and hire. Those Jesuits interested in teaching at that school must apply and qualify.
Many Jesuits live in community and many live independtly. Even those who live in community have much more freedom than does a Dominican or a Franciscans. We do things together, such as pray, play and eat. We answer to the local superior on all matters, not just our work. The superior has authority over everything, even the color of our toothbrush. This is not the case of the Jesuits. The local superior is a coordinator. He sees to it that things run well and that tasks are done. They do not have to pray together, eat together or be there all the time. They are in and out of the house, very much like secular priests are. I don’t know how they do money, whether they get an allowance or whether they have to ask for money when they need it. The mendicants usually get pocket money once a month and anything else you ask for. Some don’t even get pocket money. They get money as they need it.
My impression is that they report to the local superior on the work, not their personal journey as do other religious. Those who don’t have a local superior report directly to the Pronvincial Superior.
The Pronvincial Superiors are like CEOs. They mange finances, assignments, properties, contract and agreements with bishops and other insitutions. They provide for the needs of their Jesuit brothers, especially those in formation, the sick, and the elderly. They do not get involved in the day to day interactions between the Jesuits and the faithful, unless they get a complaint that they feel they need to address personally. Otherwise, they pass it on to the person to deal with it. That’s really the Provincial Superior’s call as to what is important enough for him to intervene. They avoid micromanaging. This was not Ignatius’ style. Francis of Assisi and Benedict were micromanagers, but not Ignatius.
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JReducation
Guest
The Pronvincial Superiors answer to the Superior General who appointed them. The Superior General is elected as the general chapter called the General Congregation. They were elected for life. I’m not sure if that’s still the practice. I believe it is. If the Superior general is a good leader, the Society is lucky. If he’s a weak one they have to wait for him to resign or die to replace him. This is why the General was often called the “Black Pope”. He was a lifer, for better or worse and he had control over everything Jesuit around the world, as much control as the constitutions allow him to have.
What many people don’t realize is that the constitutions of every religious institute of Pontifical Right have to be approved by the Holy See. The delegates to the General Congregation vote on them, but they do not become law until the Holy Father signs them. If the Jesuits are out there wearing tie-die shirts and and drinking little drinks with umbrellas on a beach, it’s because the constitution allows it and the pope knows and approved it. That’s why the laity gets frustrated, because they want the popes to get involved. The truth is that the pope is already involved. He or his successors approved the constitutions. The only way to change them would be for the pope to call another General Congregation, get the delegates in there to rewrite the thing and resubmit it to him for approval. This costs millions of dollars to do and can take several years to complete. Commissions have to setup to read the constitutions, read the feedback from the 18,000 Jesuits and from the Holy See and new articles have to be written that will reflect what the majority is saying. Then it goes for a vote among them. If it does not pass, it’s back to the drawing board. Nothing goes back to the pope until it’s all approved by the Jesuits first. Then the pope is given the final draft. He or his delegate reads it and approves or rejects it.
Papal intervention is not something that happens too often in diocese and religious orders such as Jesuits. It’s very complicated and it’s against the principle of subsidiarity. You’re supposed to solve your own problems and not bother the pope. He has other things to worry about more important than your priests Most complaints that go to Rome are never seen by him. The job of the papal staff is to redirect these things to committees and departments. Sometimes,these departments send it right back to the religious order, in this case to the Jesuits and simply say, “Here, handle this. We don’t have time or we don’t want to get involved or it’s not big enough to get the Vatican involved.” It may be something that affects a small sector, such as a parish or a province. That would be like asking Congress to look into something that happens in your town. It will just be punted bakc to the City Council to deal with.
It’s a little different from what most religious orders have and being Jesuits, they don’t always tell the faithful that they are governed very differently. That’s just a Jesuit thing. I believe that the smarter you are the spacier you can be too.
If you have a few Polish Jesuits who are pro contraception, that does not represent the four of five hundred who make up the province. You would have to show that 500 of them, in the same province, subscribe to this. That is probaly unlikely.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
What many people don’t realize is that the constitutions of every religious institute of Pontifical Right have to be approved by the Holy See. The delegates to the General Congregation vote on them, but they do not become law until the Holy Father signs them. If the Jesuits are out there wearing tie-die shirts and and drinking little drinks with umbrellas on a beach, it’s because the constitution allows it and the pope knows and approved it. That’s why the laity gets frustrated, because they want the popes to get involved. The truth is that the pope is already involved. He or his successors approved the constitutions. The only way to change them would be for the pope to call another General Congregation, get the delegates in there to rewrite the thing and resubmit it to him for approval. This costs millions of dollars to do and can take several years to complete. Commissions have to setup to read the constitutions, read the feedback from the 18,000 Jesuits and from the Holy See and new articles have to be written that will reflect what the majority is saying. Then it goes for a vote among them. If it does not pass, it’s back to the drawing board. Nothing goes back to the pope until it’s all approved by the Jesuits first. Then the pope is given the final draft. He or his delegate reads it and approves or rejects it.
Papal intervention is not something that happens too often in diocese and religious orders such as Jesuits. It’s very complicated and it’s against the principle of subsidiarity. You’re supposed to solve your own problems and not bother the pope. He has other things to worry about more important than your priests Most complaints that go to Rome are never seen by him. The job of the papal staff is to redirect these things to committees and departments. Sometimes,these departments send it right back to the religious order, in this case to the Jesuits and simply say, “Here, handle this. We don’t have time or we don’t want to get involved or it’s not big enough to get the Vatican involved.” It may be something that affects a small sector, such as a parish or a province. That would be like asking Congress to look into something that happens in your town. It will just be punted bakc to the City Council to deal with.
It’s a little different from what most religious orders have and being Jesuits, they don’t always tell the faithful that they are governed very differently. That’s just a Jesuit thing. I believe that the smarter you are the spacier you can be too.
I wouldn’t say that about entire provinces. There are certainly men who have said these kinds of things. They are not all Jesuits, but I would discourage someone from joining the Franciscans, Dominicans, Carmelites, Jesuits or a diocese between some men have said some off the wall things. You have to realize that these are huge provinces. The Jesuits are about the same size as the big Franciscans are (the OFMs). Their average province is about 500 men. In an order of almost 20,000 men, you can have many provinces in one country. Even there, the individual is not representative of the province. Remember, the superior has no authority to tell his men what they can and cannot say. The Jesuits are not friars or monks. They are deliberately very free. This serves a good purpose. They are often on missions, alone, very far from home. They can’t wait for permissions to come from across the globe.
If you have a few Polish Jesuits who are pro contraception, that does not represent the four of five hundred who make up the province. You would have to show that 500 of them, in the same province, subscribe to this. That is probaly unlikely.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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choliks
Guest
The only times that Jesuits really live in and as a community are during their formation. In the novitiate, novices follow a strict schedule and routine of prayer and other communal activities to instill discipline.
When they become scholastics, they live in formation houses but have less rigid schedules, though some still pray and eat together. However, the superior of the house or the rector assigns them tasks, sort of like practicing what they will face when they get ordained. For example: if a formation house is located in a school, the rector will assign the scholastic to a student organization that asked for a Jesuit moderator. However, the rector can pull the scholastic out if a more important need arises. Like, Bro. JR said, the rector will not micromanage what the scholastic will do. He will ask the scholastic though to share the implications of the assignment to his formation.
After a finishing his philosophy studies (2-4 years or until he gets a grade not lower than A-
), the scholastic will go into regency for 2 years (or more depending on the rector). During this period he will be assigned outside of the formation house for apostolate work. They are actually commanded not to approach a formation house unless it’s really important. An example of this is this guy…forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8357443&postcount=28
Right after regency, the scholastic then studies theology for four years leading to the priesthood.
It’s important to note though that a scholastic doesn’t go through each stage in formation automatically. If the rector or the superior of the house discerns that a scholastic is not yet ready for the next level, he will defer passage. Making the words of the rector at ordination when he presents the candidates to the provincial superior, “…I find them worthy of ordination,” all the more sweeter for them.
The last time they’ll live in and as a community is during the tertiary, when the ordained Jesuit goes back to the novitiate to relearn and remember his formative years and what it means to be basically a Jesuit.
As for financials, each scholastic receives an certain amount or “pocket money” that will let them survive the week or month.
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JReducation
Guest
Their initial formation is very conventual, like that of friars and monks. However, they are gradually released, as they mature in discipline. We have to remember, they are soldiers. A soldier has to be able to survive alone, if necessary. He has to make decisions on his own and not second-guess himself. Second-guessing himself may cause him his life. This was the modeal that St. Ignatius used to train the clerks.The only times that Jesuits really live in and as a community are during their formation. In the novitiate, novices follow a strict schedule and routine of prayer and other communal activities to instill discipline.
When they become scholastics, they live in formation houses but have less rigid schedules, though some still pray and eat together. However, the superior of the house or the rector assigns them tasks, sort of like practicing what they will face when they get ordained. For example: if a formation house is located in a school, the rector will assign the scholastic to a student organization that asked for a Jesuit moderator. However, the rector can pull the scholastic out if a more important need arises. Like, Bro. JR said, the rector will not micromanage what the scholastic will do. He will ask the scholastic though to share the implications of the assignment to his formation.
After a finishing his philosophy studies (2-4 years or until he gets a grade not lower than A-
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8357443&postcount=28
Right after regency, the scholastic then studies theology for four years leading to the priesthood.
It’s important to note though that a scholastic doesn’t go through each stage in formation automatically. If the rector or the superior of the house discerns that a scholastic is not yet ready for the next level, he will defer passage. Making the words of the rector at ordination when he presents the candidates to the provincial superior, “…I find them worthy of ordination,” all the more sweeter for them.
The last time they’ll live in and as a community is during the tertiary, when the ordained Jesuit goes back to the novitiate to relearn and remember his formative years and what it means to be basically a Jesuit.
As for financials, each scholastic receives an certain amount or “pocket money” that will let them survive the week or month.
Monks live in community and do many things in community, but they retain some autonomy. When they are not at prayer or meals, they organize their time as it best meets their needs.
Friars live in community, do many things in community, but have no autonomy from the community. We rely on the community for our spiritual, psychological and material support. We work in teams. We belong to a family of brothers.
Then you have the congregations: Redemptorists, Salesians, Passionists, OMIs, etc. They live in community for the purpose of a particular ministry, be it to preach, teach, care for the poor, etc. Their community life is organized around their ministry, which is not the case with friars and monks. Friars and monks organize their ministry around their life in community.
Jesuits take from both. They are trained in the rigors of the monks and friars, but then are assigned to a ministry and they adjust their lives according to that ministry: teaching, preaching, research, missions, parish, etc. If they are together, they share with each other. But if they are alone, they don’t sweat it. They don’t need that constant contact with their brothers. They have been disciplined to live the spiritual life with othes or alone.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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choliks
Guest
Yes, Brother. It is a gradual release. I observed that when I was discerning to enter the Society. As usual, brother, always reliable. thanks.
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CradleCath
Guest
I think he could find an order more suited to him, considering what he told us about himself. I know that the Jesuits give a tremendous secular education. They used to give an education that was both superior in Catholicism & in secularism. We live in “Jesuit country” & both my husband & my brothers attended Jesuit high schools…they were more like prep schools. I was educated by the Sacred Heart nuns whom many considered the “sister order” of the Jesuits.
In Mo., we have Rockhurst in K.C.
& in the St. louis area:
St. Louis University High School -
De Smet Jesuit High School which is a Jesuit college prep school
In fact. the Archdiocese of St. Louis is blessed with 28 Catholic high schools & most of them are Jesuit High Schools
Considering what the OP. told us about himself, I’d recommend
that he check into the Jesuits, asking a few questions:
What is their stance on homosexual acts-
What do they teach about ABC.?
How about remarriage after divorce??
What do they teach about the latest missive, written by our Pope, about ordaining gay priests?
Were they pleased by the conclave that turned Cardinal Ratzinger into Pope Benedict??
I think it’s very important that a man (or woman) entering a religious community be VERY sure that it fits them. It’s rather like marriage…it’s best to be sure BEFORE the wedding, that the two who are pledging their lives to one another are compatible.
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JReducation
Guest
The problem with this kind of interview is that you’re not going to find a religious community that has a position contrary to the Church. This is what we’ve been saying. Individuals do not make a community.
As to the last two questions, the question about ordination has to be nuanced to fit the statement. The statement did not bar homosexuals, it barred those with deep seated homosexaul tendencies. The Church has a very particular group in mind. The explanatioins given to the religious superiors explain this very clearly.
The last question about the result of the conclave is not a matter of doctrine. The vocation director or the superior does not have to be a fan of Cardinal Ratzinger. The bottom line is whether or not they accept the outcome, no t whether or not they like the selection. There is no requirement that you like the selection.
The Jesuits have made it very clear, especially at their last General Congregation, that they have no problem with the current Pontiff or with the papacy. This was a public document that Pope Benedict ask them to put out there to clarify misunderstandings and to help him understand where they’re coming from.
That leaves the moral questions. Again, no religious community can or will endorse the opposing position. That does not stop individual members from doing so, especially in religious orders such as the Jesuits where the superior does not have the canonical authority to interfere until the situation becomes very grave. “Very grave” is a hard call to make. It’s a tough call for Jesuit superiors.
Finally, God does not call you to a religious community because it is faithful or more faithful. God calls you to a charism. The Jesuit charism is unique. No one else lives that charism. It’s like telling someone to pass up and the Franciscans and go to the Dominicans. We have some things in common, but they are externals. The two charisms are very different. A good Dominican does not make a good Franciscan or the other way around.
If you look at Dominicans and Jesuits, they are both preachers, both scholars, both missionaries, but that’s where the similarity ends. The Jesuits are clerks regular. The Dominicans are friars. The way of life of a clerk regula ris very different from that of a friar, even if they do the same work. They have very different gifts from the Holy Spirit.
Let the young man go where God is leading. If God is truly leading him into the Jesuits, he will confirm it through the Jesuit superior. If he’s not leading there, he will also confirm it through the superior.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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Ahimsa
Guest
That makes sense.
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choliks
Guest
I know it’s an old thread, but I’d like to revive it even for a while just to post this internet meme done by Fr. James Martin, SJ… funny.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
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Richard320
Guest
No.
Not anymore. Their great history - which certainly extended well into the 1960s - doesn’t reflect their current state.
Try entering Jesuit in the search box at catholicculture.org/index.cfm
There is a whole lot of truth in this joke, which is why it’s funny
A man walked up to a Franciscan and Jesuit and asked, “How many novenas must you say to get a Mercedes Benz?”
The Franciscan asked, “What’s a Mercedes Benz?”
The Jesuit asked, “What’s a novena?”
Not anymore. Their great history - which certainly extended well into the 1960s - doesn’t reflect their current state.
Try entering Jesuit in the search box at catholicculture.org/index.cfm
There is a whole lot of truth in this joke, which is why it’s funny
A man walked up to a Franciscan and Jesuit and asked, “How many novenas must you say to get a Mercedes Benz?”
The Franciscan asked, “What’s a Mercedes Benz?”
The Jesuit asked, “What’s a novena?”
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Tarpeian_Rock
Guest
Your response states that one cannot be a faithful Catholic and a Jesuit. I think that’s not only wrong, but slanders an entire religious order.
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jwinch2
Guest
Which is distinctly frowned upon on CAF…
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
You need to read this sticky post here at the forum . . .
Orthodox Orders REMINDER
Before you try to give any advice in the Vocations forum.
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choliks
Guest
Can I ask you, sir, if you have encountered the Jesuits personally? Or was your opinion just based on another person’s opinion?
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Richard320
Guest
Yes, you may, and yes, I have.
I went to a retreat at a Jesuit center once. I left at lunchtime Saturday. I was disgusted.
Saturday morning was a prayer service, not a Mass. But it was in the chapel. There was no mention of Jesus, it was “Creator” and “Higher Power.” They did announce that Mass would be Saturday evening…in the conference center, not the chapel.
It was quite difficult to tell if anyone on the staff was a priest or a gardener - not a single Roman collar to be seen anywhere. They were, however, introduced as “Father so-and-so” later, so it appears there were a few priests after all.
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choliks
Guest
Firstly, you must known ALL of the Jesuits personally to lump them all together and make that conclusion.
Secondly, it was a prayer service, NOT a Mass.
Thirdly, I think you were expecting them to wear the Roman collar at all times, but they are not required. Maybe you’re confusing them with diocesan priests.
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Splagchnizomai
Guest
I first heard that joke from a Jesuit.
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