Are the Jews still the chosen people?

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The stealth reference was to the idea of disguising Christianity with Jewish trappings and verbiage in order to convert Jews who might otherwise be alienated by missionizing.
 
ConstantLearner said:
You sound like you would rather the Jews NOT believe in Christ!
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I am just pointing out the facts. I don’t understand your leap of logic from the comment I made to the preferences of mine you deduce from it.

However, my profile and posts all over these forums clearly show I am an Orthodox Jew, so I would expect anyone to understand that on their own… it kind of goes without saying.
 
EdwardJP said:
The way I was taught to understand it is based on the New Testament. The first churches were in a gentile region and gentiles were placed on the same spiritual level. I agree with other comments that the Jews served a purpose prior to Jesus coming to earth. After that their special status was removed.
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I hope you are not insinuatinb the Jews serve no further purpose!

Their special status should still remain.
 
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Purpose was probably a poor choice for a word. I know they still have status with God as a people. The fact that they exist as a nation is proof of that. I do however feel that their status isn’t as remarkable as it once was. The Canaanite woman from today’s reading is eveidence that gentiles gained equal status in Gods eyes.
 
You might want to look at a map of Greece and start pinning the cities where the churches are who Paul wrote his letters to. Have a nice day.
 
Moses613 said:
However, my profile and posts all over these forums clearly show I am an Orthodox Jew, so I would expect anyone to understand that on their own… it kind of goes without saying.
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Sorry, I didn’t even look at your name and don’t remember encountering you before. Of course it goes without saying.
 
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Moses613 said:
The stealth reference was to the idea of disguising Christianity with Jewish trappings and verbiage in order to convert Jews who might otherwise be alienated by missionizing.
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Don’t you think you may be underestimating the intelligence of your ancestors?
 
That’s something I’m considering.
Moses613 said:
The stealth reference was to the idea of disguising Christianity with Jewish trappings and verbiage in order to convert Jews who might otherwise be alienated by missionizing.
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I think that this comment assumes the following:
  1. Catholic Christianity has no Jewish origins - which historically is inaccurate. It all began with Yeshua HaMaschiah around 33 AD, Who’d founded a Church with His Apostles, who were all Jewish. Historically Christianity was considered a sect of Judaism, & it wasn’t until the siege of Jerusalem around 70 AD that both split officially.
I have read different accounts for the split. One account cited that Christians were led by their convictions and Jesus’ prophetic words about the destruction of Jerusalem that they fled as He’d commanded. This was perceived by Jews of that time as abandonment of the faith & of their people at the time of the Jewish Revolt (66 AD). Since they didn’t fight alongside their brethren at that time, they were rejected by their people. Another account seems to attribute the split to growing differences of the faiths, especially with changes in the observances of certain laws in the Torah that were no longer practiced under the New Covenant and the entrance of Gentiles into the fold.
  1. Only those who’re alienated (perhaps perceived as lonely & weak) are vulnerable targets for missionaries, which also assumes that…
  2. Christians are intentionally trying to mislead people.
I think that some people live with certain assumptions, & when they realize that their assumptions are incorrect, they investigate the claims of the faith on their own. Usually once they realize the truth, the logical coherence, and the beauty of the Gospel, they accept and embrace it at great personal cost to them. For these reasons, I disagree with these assumptions.
 
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ConstantLearner said:
Don’t you think you may be underestimating the intelligence of your ancestors?
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I have no idea what this has to do with my ancestors. I think we are coming from different worlds with different assumptions, and therefore may be talking past each other. I really don’t understand your comment. Some Jews are more intelligent, some less. Like in every group.
 
Well, I am Jewish, too, though not as educated as you seem to be. I was baptized in the Catholic Church when I had no choice, but do not consider myself Catholic or attend mass. (Jewish mother, Catholic father)

In my family, we kept a kosher kitchen, celebrated the Jewish holidays rather than the Christian, etc., so yes, I do think we’re coming from different worlds, but not so different as you might have assumed.
 
kainosktisis said:
I think that this comment assumes the following:
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  1. My comment assumes no such thing. I think you don’t understand how Jews for Jesus and similar groups operate. They take the trappings of the Rabbinic Jewish religion, which are in no way similar to Christian practice, including synagogues and using Rabbinic liturgy and customs, and meld them with Jesus. That is just synthesizing a religion that never existed before.
  2. I would replace the word “only” with “mostly,” but yes.
  3. Yes, Messianic Jews are intentionally trying to mislead people. I really don’t understand why you are defending a group of pretend-Jewish, missionizing, Protestant Evangelicals. They are converting Jews to a religion that your church considers heresy in the first place. Also, while the RCC believes in evangelizing, my understanding is they do not believe in “missionizing” per se, and recognize this can be offensive to Jews.
Peace.

P.S.:
It is not surprising that the word “proselytism” has a negative ring. It now means recruitment and conduct which, through giving witness to one"s own faith, offends the right of others to freedom from external or mental oppression and force regarding religious questions. It also unfairly estranges others from their ancestral community. Tommaso Federici, professor of biblical theology at the Gregoriana in Rome, was in charge of a study commissioned by the Vatican commission for religious relations with the Jews. The official, combined Catholic-Jewish committee completed its six years of meetings on March 28-30, 1977. According to Federici, every form of witness and proclamation that in any way can be construed as a physical, moral, psychological and cultural necessity for Jews–whether as individuals or community–is rejected.

A conversion cannot be authentic if it is not operative as a spiritual deepening in a person"s religious consciousness. This step must only be undertaken after a period of intense inner examination. Thus, the attempt to establish organizations for the “conversion” of Jews, above all pedagogical or charitable, is rejected.
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Source: http://www.jcrelations.net/Dialogue__not_proselytizing.2251.0.html
 
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Moses613 said:
  • My comment assumes no such thing. I think you don’t understand how Jews for Jesus and similar groups operate. They take the trappings of the Rabbinic Jewish religion, which are in no way similar to Christian practice, including synagogues and using Rabbinic liturgy and customs, and meld them with Jesus. That is just synthesizing a religion that never existed before.
  • I would replace the word “only” with “mostly,” but yes.
  • Yes, Messianic Jews are intentionally trying to mislead people. I really don’t understand why you are defending a group of pretend-Jewish, missionizing, Protestant Evangelicals. They are converting Jews to a religion that your church considers heresy in the first place. Also, which the RCC believes in evangelizing, my understanding is they do not believe in “missionizing” per se, and recognize this can be offensive to Jews.
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Moshe, respectfully…

Regarding comment 1, I understand that you feel that way, but how would that apply if Jews actually believed & accepted Yeshua & practiced as they were raised? I don’t see how this conflicts with the faith.

Regarding comment 2, I’m ok with your wording, but I still disagree that specific people are targeted. I think it underestimates a spiritual need that people seek to fill by following Yeshua.

Regarding comment 3, so Moshe Rosen, David Brickner, & the rest are non-Jews then…?

I found this regarding God’s irrevocable calling. Perhaps it will help to shed light on this topic:

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p...i_doc_20151210_ebraismo-nostra-aetate_en.html
 
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Messianic Jews certainly aren’t Jewish, though I wouldn’t call them Protestant, either, though I guess that’s the best label. To me, they are an entity all their own. Christian, but neither Catholic nor Protestant. They do not place themselves under the authority of the Pope, nor do they “protest” anything about Catholicism. Their liturgy is peudo-Jewish, but I, myself, can’t call them a sect of Judaism because of their belief in Christ as the Messiah.

But I’m no scholar - of anything. I suppose their liturgy causes me to reject the label of “Protestant.”
 
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kainosktisis said:
Regarding comment 1, I understand that you feel that way, but how would that apply if Jews actually believed & accepted Yeshua & practiced as they were raised? I don’t see how this conflicts with the faith.
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It may or may not conflict, depending on the particular beliefs of the Christian sect in question, but it is a new thing. Historically a Jewish convert to Christianity never retained his Jewish observance.
Regarding comment 3, so Moshe Rosen, David Brickner, & the rest are non-Jews then…?
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Their religion is not Judaism. That is the extent of my statement.
 
I think people have different definitions of what constitutes a Jew.

A person can be ethnically Jewish, or religiously Jewish, or a convert into the faith.
 
Moses613 said:
Fair enough, @ConstantLearner. Thanks.
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You’re welcome. With Roman Catholicism and Judaism in my family, and now my older sister belongs to a Messianic community, it’s left me a bit overwhelmed. I’ve always felt Jewish, though.
 
ConstantLearner said:
To me, they are an entity all their own. Christian, but neither Catholic nor Protestant. They do not place themselves under the authority of the Pope, nor do they “protest” anything about Catholicism. Their liturgy is peudo-Jewish, but I, myself, can’t call them a sect of Judaism because of their belief in Christ as the Messiah.
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There is some truth to this, however, if their liturgy is Pseudo-Jewish, I think it’s interesting how they bring out the Torah Scrolls to read from them - even circling the congregation with the Scrolls.
 
I’ve gone with my sister to the Messianic community to which she belongs. They do what you stated. I just can’t consider them Jewish because of their belief that Jesus was the Messiah, not just a great and loving rabbi.
 
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