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Dan_Parker
Guest
What about when Pope Gregory I predicted the end was starting in his day? If he got it wrong and now the Catholic Church has new light then why is he not a false prophet?
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Dan_Parker
Guest
If you read my posts in this thread you will get the answer in detail. The short answer is that we publish God’s word in the WT and don’t claim that our interpretation of it is inspired or without error. What about Pope Gregory I? Was he a false prophet?
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Bill_Pick
Guest
and John 1:1
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FCEGM
Guest
Gregory I was no more a false prophet than St. Paul was in expecting and hoping for the return of the Lord. Further, Gregory is writing his personal understanding in a letter to a regent, not to the entirety of the Household of Faith as something to be believed by all. One hopeful Saint or Pope does not a false prophet make; otoh, an organization’s continued series of false prophecies and unfulfilled expectations which influenced many thousands of people demonstrates clearly the lack of credibility of the same. This organization has built it’s house on the shifting sands of failed predictions and fallen hopes all due to the ignorance of its founders and those who continue to perpetuate that ignorance through the years.
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Disciple96
Guest
Just wanted to note this, in case someone else hasn’t already: The JW’s do not think of themselves and do not call themselves a church. They call themselves an organization. That’s what my JW friends tell me and is also what I’ve read about them during my research. They use a different Bible (two different versions, I think), with what they claim is the “corrected” “translation” of the Scriptures.
So…Built on quicksand, to be sure, but not even close to being a church. But I get your point and I certainly agree.
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Dan_Parker
Guest
What about it?
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the_phoenix
Guest
I do not find this shocking.
In fact, and I hope one of my fellow Catholics here who is either more knowledgeable or has a better memory can help me out on something I seem to remember about Pope John Paul II. Many years ago, and I wish I had a source to cite but unfortunately I can’t remember what it was I read, I thought Pope John Paul II had either said or written to the effect that we are now living in the end times … and that he defined the end times as starting from the passion, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
I also find it interesting that in St. Faustina’s Diary (Divine Mercy in My Soul), she writes:
"I bear a special love for Poland, and if she will be obedient to My will, I will exalt her in might and holiness. From her will come forth the spark that will prepare the world for My final coming."Notebook VI 1732
Some conjecture that this “spark from Poland” might refer to Pope John Paul II.
Now for this quote from St. Faustina’s Diary I can provide the following website:
our.homewithgod.com/divinemercy/book6/
Anybody else out there recall Pope John Paul II saying that these are the end times, or is it just me? If anyone can provide any insight, I’d be very grateful for your help in providing sources and/or more information. Thanks!
EDIT: Found part of what I was looking for, I think:
“We are now facing the final confrontation between the Church and the anti-Church, of the Gospel and the anti-Gospel… It is a trial which the whole Church . . . must take up.” — Pope John Paul II, reprinted November 9, 1978, issue of The Wall Street Journal
markmallett.com/blog/?p=522
~~ the phoenix
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ricko
Guest
Well Dan, what about Pope Gregory I? You think he was predicting the end? Not exactly. Read what your organization says and compare it to what the Pope said. Hint. The Pope does not give a year or time, just that it is near. The JWs have (several times) given the year. Dan, that should tell you something. A church or organization cannot lead the way to salvation or teach the Truth if they can’t even understand simple things in the bible, mainly that “ONLY the Father knows”
Chronologists?! No no. They can’t get that right either. If some organization makes predictions time after time that are wrong, it doesn’t make any difference what title you give them, it’s a FALSE prediction. The JWs have been caught with their pants down so often that I do believe they have finally stopped. They are still a false religion nevertheless.
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Dan_Parker
Guest
Actually, the word Church is from the Greek EKKLESIA and means ‘ones called out’. We render this word as “congregation.” We are not the first to make this distinction. Even the Douay Rheims does not render this as church.
DBY Matthew 16:18 And I also, I say unto thee that thou art Peter, and on this rock I will build my assembly, and hades’ gates shall not prevail against it.
Jehovah’s Witnesses are organized into formal groups called congregations. As for bibles, we primary use the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, but at the Kingdom Hall we can obtain others such as the ASV, RSV, KJV and one or two others that are not as well known. I have 20 or more English versions in my personal library.
The NWT is translated primarily from the Hebrew BHS and Greek Westcott/Hort.
Hope that helps.
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Bill_Pick
Guest
We must have two diff Bible thats not what My bible said here is what my said And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
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Dan_Parker
Guest
The fact of the matter is that those who adhere to an end-time which resembles pre-trib rapture in Protestant circles (as opposed to preterism) have all at one time or another made end-time predictions. Interestingly this also includes some well known Catholics.
None of that is false prophecy. For example, Martin Luther:
Martin Luther - 1483 to 1546
*]“For my part, I am sure that he day of judgment is just around the corner. It doesn’t matter that we don’t know the precise day … perhaps someone else can figure it out. But it is certain that time is not at an end.” (Reformation Principles and Practice: Essays in Honor of Arthur Geoffrey Dickens, page 169)
*]“For Luther there was a clear pattern of degeneration in world history… by correlating historical events with Biblical prophecies Luther could announce the nearness of the final cataclysm – and deliverance for believers – with relative certainty … (Luther) was thus sure that his own time was the ‘time of the end’ referred to in Daniel 12, when the meaning of these prophecies was to be revealed” (Robin Bruce Barnes, Prophecy and Gnosis-Apocalypticism in the Wake of the Lutheran Reformation, Pages 32,40)
*]After Luther’s death collections of his prophecies appeared regularly such as The Several Prophetic Statements of Doctor Martin Luther, the Third Elias" (1552) which states “Luther had prophesied that after he died the Gospel would disappear”.
I don’t think this is why he was excommunicated
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yellowbird
Guest
If your Governing Body doesn’t speak for God, as you say, why did they say that the materials they print are not words of men?
“The Watchtower is not the instrument of any man or set of men, nor is it published according to the whims of men. No man’s opinion is expressed in The Watchtower. God feeds his own people” (Watchtower November 1, 1931, p. 327).
You can’t have it both ways. You cannot claim to speak for God and then get it all wrong and claim you weren’t speaking for God after the fact when nothing you’ve said comes to pass.
But ok - the Watchtower doesn’t speak for Jehovah you say. They are just men interpreting scripture how they see fit. So let’s look at their track record… Throughout their brief history (140 give or take years) these men have made countless predictions - NOT ONE of which has come true. Why should I listen to anything these men have to say? They’ve proven time and again that they clearly don’t know what they are talking about. In all sincerity Dan, why would you follow people who’ve NEVER gotten it right and have to keep changing their beliefs as time goes by?
I love reading the writings of my Church Fathers… Christians who lived several hundred years after Christ. As Catholics, we embrace their teachings because they show how similar the beliefs of the Christians 2000 years ago are to the Catholic Church today. Do you find it odd that the Watchtower Society tries to distance itself from the writings of it’s founders… Charles T. Russel and Judge Rutherford? Don’t you think it’s odd that the Society has completly rejected almost all of Russel’s teachings considering that he called himself the one whom God appointed to dispense knowledge? (Faithful & discreet slave)
And finally, I’m honestly curious if you believe Christ returned in 1914?
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yellowbird
Guest
The fact of the matter is that those who adhere to an end-time which resembles pre-trib rapture in Protestant circles (as opposed to preterism) have all at one time or another made end-time predictions. Interestingly this also includes some well known Catholics.
None of that is false prophecy. For example, Martin Luther:
Martin Luther - 1483 to 1546
*]“For my part, I am sure that he day of judgment is just around the corner. It doesn’t matter that we don’t know the precise day … perhaps someone else can figure it out. But it is certain that time is not at an end.” (Reformation Principles and Practice: Essays in Honor of Arthur Geoffrey Dickens, page 169)
*]“For Luther there was a clear pattern of degeneration in world history… by correlating historical events with Biblical prophecies Luther could announce the nearness of the final cataclysm – and deliverance for believers – with relative certainty … (Luther) was thus sure that his own time was the ‘time of the end’ referred to in Daniel 12, when the meaning of these prophecies was to be revealed” (Robin Bruce Barnes, Prophecy and Gnosis-Apocalypticism in the Wake of the Lutheran Reformation, Pages 32,40)
*]After Luther’s death collections of his prophecies appeared regularly such as The Several Prophetic Statements of Doctor Martin Luther, the Third Elias" (1552) which states “Luther had prophesied that after he died the Gospel would disappear”.
I don’t think this is why he was excommunicated
Are you quoting Martin Luther as your well-known Catholic?
Here’s the difference between the WT Society and other religious leaders who make predicitions: The Christians who heard Martin Luther’s beliefs or any other religious person - Catholic or otherwise were free to disagree. They were free to say to all of their friends… I just don’t see it that way.
Were the JW’s alive in the 1940’s free to say I think the WT is WRONG about Armegeddon being right around the corner? What about the JW’s in the 1960’s? or in 1974? What do you think would’ve happened to the JW who stood up at the Kingdom Hall in 1974 and said, “I just don’t believe that 1975 date is correct. I think they’ve got it all wrong and I refuse to live my life thinking it is! I want to have babies and go to college and get a degree so I can support my family!” What do you think would’ve happend to the JW who announced that?
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Cluny
Guest
bpbasilphx:
In their March or April 1972 issue of WATCHTOWER, the lead article, “They shall know that a prophet was among them,” says that the JW organization is a prophet just as Elijah was.
Dan:
By our definition of “prophet” it can be seen that we do not claim to tell the future. We prophecy merely by preaching and teaching about prophecy already written in the bible.
I noticed you said NOTHING about what your apostate journal WATCHTOWER actually said in the article cited about claiming to be a prophet in the tradition of the OT prophets.
The Watchtower is a snare and a racket, and unlike Christianity, has never done anything for mankind.
You admitted your church DOES make mistakes.
The Catholic Church, however, claims infallibility in what she teaches.
Which would be safer?
In their March or April 1972 issue of WATCHTOWER, the lead article, “They shall know that a prophet was among them,” says that the JW organization is a prophet just as Elijah was.
Dan:
By our definition of “prophet” it can be seen that we do not claim to tell the future. We prophecy merely by preaching and teaching about prophecy already written in the bible.
I noticed you said NOTHING about what your apostate journal WATCHTOWER actually said in the article cited about claiming to be a prophet in the tradition of the OT prophets.
The Watchtower is a snare and a racket, and unlike Christianity, has never done anything for mankind.
You admitted your church DOES make mistakes.
The Catholic Church, however, claims infallibility in what she teaches.
Which would be safer?
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Bill_Pick
Guest
If the organization did not actually prophesy the end in 1925 and 1975, then how come so many Witnesses left the faith immediately afterwards? (“They lost roughly three-quarters of the movement between 1925 and 1928, then suffered huge losses after 1975, when the end didn’t come as they had implied over and over again,” said Jim Penton, an ex-Witness who writes entries on Jehovah’s Witnesses for the Encyclopedia Americana.)
Jim Penton
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Bill_Pick
Guest
The fact of the matter is that those who adhere to an end-time which resembles pre-trib rapture in Protestant circles (as opposed to preterism) have all at one time or another made end-time predictions. Interestingly this also includes some well known Catholics.
None of that is false prophecy. For example, Martin Luther:
Martin Luther - 1483 to 1546
*]“For my part, I am sure that he day of judgment is just around the corner. It doesn’t matter that we don’t know the precise day … perhaps someone else can figure it out. But it is certain that time is not at an end.” (Reformation Principles and Practice: Essays in Honor of Arthur Geoffrey Dickens, page 169)
*]“For Luther there was a clear pattern of degeneration in world history… by correlating historical events with Biblical prophecies Luther could announce the nearness of the final cataclysm – and deliverance for believers – with relative certainty … (Luther) was thus sure that his own time was the ‘time of the end’ referred to in Daniel 12, when the meaning of these prophecies was to be revealed” (Robin Bruce Barnes, Prophecy and Gnosis-Apocalypticism in the Wake of the Lutheran Reformation, Pages 32,40)
*]After Luther’s death collections of his prophecies appeared regularly such as The Several Prophetic Statements of Doctor Martin Luther, the Third Elias" (1552) which states “Luther had prophesied that after he died the Gospel would disappear”.
I don’t think this is why he was excommunicated
Dan Parker Do you think Chas Russel was a true prophet of god
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FCEGM
Guest
I’m pretty sure what the Holy Father meant is that from the beginning of the Church we’ve been living in the end times; it’s both a prophecy (which isn’t just telling the future, but is also a testimony to the state of the age(s) in which the Church lives) and a witness to the reality of Christ’s presence with His Church now through His indwelling presence in faithful souls and in His Sacraments AND a witness to His eventual coming in Glory - that coming which follows the trials of the Church in imitation of the Crucifixion of the Savior.
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the_phoenix
Guest
Thank you very much for your eloquent words of explanation, FCEGM!
This is the point I was trying to make. You’ve done much better than I could.
~~ the phoenix
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ricko
Guest
Are we to assume from this study that the battle of Armageddon will be all over by the autumn of 1975, and the long-looked-for thousand-year reign of Christ will begin by then? Possibly, but we wait to see how closely the seventh thousand-year period of man’s existence coincides with the sabbathlike thousand-year reign of Christ. If these two periods run parallel with each other as to the calendar year, it will not be by mere chance or accident but will be according to Jehovah’s loving and timely purposes…It may involve only a difference of weeks or months, not years." – page 499
The August 15, 1968 Watchtower
Those who are convinced that The Watchtower is publishing the opinion or expression of a man should not waste time in looking at it at all… Those who believe that God uses The Watchtower as a means of communicating to his people, or of calling attention to his prophecies, should study The Watchtower…" – The Watchtower January 1, 1942, page 5
The Watchtower is God’s word according to the Watchtower. So now we have the Watchtower stating for sure in the autumn of 1975. That was another false predition.
The August 15, 1968 Watchtower
Those who are convinced that The Watchtower is publishing the opinion or expression of a man should not waste time in looking at it at all… Those who believe that God uses The Watchtower as a means of communicating to his people, or of calling attention to his prophecies, should study The Watchtower…" – The Watchtower January 1, 1942, page 5
The Watchtower is God’s word according to the Watchtower. So now we have the Watchtower stating for sure in the autumn of 1975. That was another false predition.
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ricko
Guest
"Just as Jesus’ prophecies regarding Jerusalem were fulfilled within the life span of the generation of the year 33 C.E., so his prophecies regarding ‘the time of the end’ will be fulfilled within the life span of the generation of 1914. …
“…Yes, you may live to see this promised New Order, along with survivors of the generation of 1914 – the generation that will not pass away.” – The Watchtower May 15, 1984, pages 6-7 (The bracketed expression “[of 1914]” is in the original.)
So, the Watchtower Society fits the description of a false prophet found at Deuteronomy 18:20-22. The Society made the prediction in God’s name, and the prediction failed to come true.
“…Yes, you may live to see this promised New Order, along with survivors of the generation of 1914 – the generation that will not pass away.” – The Watchtower May 15, 1984, pages 6-7 (The bracketed expression “[of 1914]” is in the original.)
So, the Watchtower Society fits the description of a false prophet found at Deuteronomy 18:20-22. The Society made the prediction in God’s name, and the prediction failed to come true.
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