Are the Oriental/Coptic Orthodox sacraments valid?

[starchyp]

Are the Oriental orthodox sacraments valid. Are they recognized as a church by Rome? Thanks

 

[bpbasilphx]

This question has been asked many times and the answer is always, “Yes.”

 

[mardukm]

Yes, indeed. In fact, the issue regarding the Council of Chalcedon has been doctrinally settled between the Oriental Orthodox and Catholic Churches (though not between the Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox Churches). Further, there are pastoral provisions for intermarriage between the Catholic Church and the Syrian Orthodox/Armenian Apostolic Churches in the United States.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[nightphoenix]

Yes, indeed. In fact, the issue regarding the Council of Chalcedon has been doctrinally settled between the Oriental Orthodox and Catholic Churches (though not between the Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox Churches). Further, there are pastoral provisions for intermarriage between the Catholic Church and the Syrian Orthodox/Armenian Apostolic Churches in the United States.

Blessings,
Marduk

I know this is an old thread, but could you or someone give me some links (if available) to the official agreements between the OO and Catholic Churches? I’m very interested in this topic and would love to read what the agreements say…thanks a bunch. (feel free to PM a reply if you so wish)

 

[Fuerza]

Since this topic has been resurrected, has the Catholic Church ever commented on the validity of Armenian Apostolic reconciliation? I know that their priests are considered to have the authority to absolve in theory, but the Armenian Church generally does not make use of individual confession of specific sins, opting instead for a general penitential prayer followed by a general absolution at the Divine Liturgy. In the Catholic Church, this practice is considered invalid in all but life or death emergencies.

Does the Catholic Church consider Armenian Orthodox Christians who have participated in these general absolutions to be truly absolved? If so, does this mean that, in theory at least, the Catholic Church could abandon the practice of specific confession in favor of an act of contrition/general absolution combo? Basically I guess what the question boils down to is: Is confession an absolute theological requirement for absolution in non-emergency situations, or is the requirement merely disciplinary?

 

[Harpazo]

Since this topic has been resurrected, has the Catholic Church ever commented on the validity of Armenian Apostolic reconciliation? I know that their priests are considered to have the authority to absolve in theory, but the Armenian Church generally does not make use of individual confession of specific sins, opting instead for a general penitential prayer followed by a general absolution at the Divine Liturgy. In the Catholic Church, this practice is considered invalid in all but life or death emergencies.

Does the Catholic Church consider Armenian Orthodox Christians who have participated in these general absolutions to be truly absolved? If so, does this mean that, in theory at least, the Catholic Church could abandon the practice of specific confession in favor of an act of contrition/general absolution combo? Basically I guess what the question boils down to is: Is confession an absolute theological requirement for absolution in non-emergency situations, or is the requirement merely disciplinary?

I can’t speak for the Armenian Apostolics, but in the Syriac Church, there is no tradition of auricular confession, only for 3 major sins. These, if I remember correctly, are: murder, adultery, and heresy/apostasy. And of course the penance was grueling and could take years to complete. This might have been the same for the Armenians, considering they were in such proximity.

The Maronites, for example, adopted the Latin form because they never had one. They are currently working on their own formulation for this Mystery, if memory serves.

Alloho minkhoun,
Andrew

 

[Ghosty]

Is confession an absolute theological requirement for absolution in non-emergency situations, or is the requirement merely disciplinary?

Since geenral absolution is indeed fundamentally valid and is allowed in some circumstances, I’m guessing that the invalidity arises from canonical discipline, not from the non-applicability of the General Confession.

I’d imagine that the Armenian Apostolic Confession is understood as valid, since their own canons do not make it invalid in those circumstances.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Yes, indeed. In fact, the issue regarding the Council of Chalcedon has been doctrinally settled between the Oriental Orthodox and Catholic Churches (though not between the Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox Churches).

?

Further, there are pastoral provisions for intermarriage between the Catholic Church and the Syrian Orthodox/Armenian Apostolic Churches in the United States.

So the Syrians and Armenians recognize a marriage in a church under the Vatican?

 

[Aramis]

Are the Oriental orthodox sacraments valid. Are they recognized as a church by Rome? Thanks

Yes. Even mentioned in Roman canon law (CIC) and the Catholic Canon Law for the Eastern Churches (CCEO).

 

[Fuerza]

I can’t speak for the Armenian Apostolics, but in the Syriac Church, there is no tradition of auricular confession, only for 3 major sins. These, if I remember correctly, are: murder, adultery, and heresy/apostasy. And of course the penance was grueling and could take years to complete. This might have been the same for the Armenians, considering they were in such proximity.

The Maronites, for example, adopted the Latin form because they never had one. They are currently working on their own formulation for this Mystery, if memory serves.

Alloho minkhoun,
Andrew

That’s interesting. I didn’t know that about the Syriac Church. Do you know if they recite a general penitential prayer in place of confessing sins other than the big 3 before absolution, or are they not required to make any type of confession for these?

As for the Maronites, what did they do before they adopted the Latin formula? Do you have any idea if the new formulation on which they’re working will include specific confession of all serious sins? Thanks.

Since geenral absolution is indeed fundamentally valid and is allowed in some circumstances, I’m guessing that the invalidity arises from canonical discipline, not from the non-applicability of the General Confession.

I’d imagine that the Armenian Apostolic Confession is understood as valid, since their own canons do not make it invalid in those circumstances.

Peace and God bless!

I tend to agree with you, but why do you think that the Armenian (and Syriac for that matter) Catholic Churches adopted the practice of auricular confession upon coming into communion with Rome? Is this merely an example of a forced Latinization, was the practice adopted voluntarily, or did Rome require this for theological reasons?

 

[Fuerza]

In researching a question on another thread, I came across a statement in the Catholic Encyclopedia:

newadvent.org/cathen/11618c.htm

In the section entitled, “Confession (necessity)” it indicates that the Council of Trent stated specific auricular confession to be necessary (unless I’m reading it wrong).

 

[Ghosty]

In researching a question on another thread, I came across a statement in the Catholic Encyclopedia:

newadvent.org/cathen/11618c.htm

In the section entitled, “Confession (necessity)” it indicates that the Council of Trent stated specific auricular confession to be necessary (unless I’m reading it wrong).

Which part of the article are you refering to? I’m not seeing such a thing in my reading, though it does indicate that specific confession is prefered. The rest of the article doe seem to allow for general confession and absolution, so far as I can tell.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Fuerza]

Which part of the article are you refering to? I’m not seeing such a thing in my reading, though it does indicate that specific confession is prefered. The rest of the article doe seem to allow for general confession and absolution, so far as I can tell.

Peace and God bless!

Specifically this quote, as well as the few preceding lines:

The Council of Trent, after declaring that Christ left his priests as His vicars unto whom as rulers and judges the faithful must make known their sins, adds: “It is evident that the priests could not have exercised this judgment without knowledge of the cause, nor could they have observed justice in enjoining satisfaction if (the faithful) had declared their sins in a general way only and not specifically and in detail” (Sess. XIV, c. 5).

To me this seems to indicate a need for specific confession, although I’m open to correction. I guess I am a little confused because I’ve never heard Rome condemn this practice with regard to the Armenian Orthodox, but the Armenian Catholics of today practice specific confession. There has to have been a reason why they made the change when they came into communion with Rome.

 

[Ghosty]

Specifically this quote, as well as the few preceding lines:

The Council of Trent, after declaring that Christ left his priests as His vicars unto whom as rulers and judges the faithful must make known their sins, adds: “It is evident that the priests could not have exercised this judgment without knowledge of the cause, nor could they have observed justice in enjoining satisfaction if (the faithful) had declared their sins in a general way only and not specifically and in detail” (Sess. XIV, c. 5).

To me this seems to indicate a need for specific confession, although I’m open to correction. I guess I am a little confused because I’ve never heard Rome condemn this practice with regard to the Armenian Orthodox, but the Armenian Catholics of today practice specific confession. There has to have been a reason why they made the change when they came into communion with Rome.

Well, again, Rome also uses this practice when it comes to possible mass-deaths. In light of this, I don’t think the statement by Trent can be understood as forbidding the use of such general absolutions, but more likely is defending individual and specific Confession in the face of Protestant attacks on the practice.

General absolution is not the norm, nor the prefered method of the Sacrament, but it’s still an absolution even in the Latin Church.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Harpazo]

?

So the Syrians and Armenians recognize a marriage in a church under the Vatican?

Shlom lokh,

I’m just curious why you keep using the phrase “church under the Vatican.” It sounds very polemical and very unfitting in speaking with fellow Christians.

The Syriac Orthodox share 3 Mysteries with the Catholics: Baptism, Marriage and Eucharist.

Alloho minokhoun,
Andrew

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Fuerza,

Specifically this quote, as well as the few preceding lines:

The Council of Trent, after declaring that Christ left his priests as His vicars unto whom as rulers and judges the faithful must make known their sins, adds: “It is evident that the priests could not have exercised this judgment without knowledge of the cause, nor could they have observed justice in enjoining satisfaction if (the faithful) had declared their sins in a general way only and not specifically and in detail” (Sess. XIV, c. 5).

To me this seems to indicate a need for specific confession, although I’m open to correction. I guess I am a little confused because I’ve never heard Rome condemn this practice with regard to the Armenian Orthodox, but the Armenian Catholics of today practice specific confession. There has to have been a reason why they made the change when they came into communion with Rome.

Unless, I’m misreading it, section 1482.of the Catechism seems to indicate that this general absolution is common enough in the Latin Church.

To be honest, I’ve seen general absolution practiced in a Latin Church twice, both times during Lent, at a church where the number of penitents was extraordinarily large. In one of the instances, private confession was held for about three hours, with 5 priests from neighboring parishes, but it seemed the lines were not shortening at all. So the pastor instructed everyone there would be a general absolution. In the other instance, there was a Liturgy for the purpose of the general absolution.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Fuerza]

Well, again, Rome also uses this practice when it comes to possible mass-deaths. In light of this, I don’t think the statement by Trent can be understood as forbidding the use of such general absolutions, but more likely is defending individual and specific Confession in the face of Protestant attacks on the practice.

General absolution is not the norm, nor the prefered method of the Sacrament, but it’s still an absolution even in the Latin Church.

Peace and God bless!

That’s an interesting perspective, and I suppose that it’s possible. So if specific confession is not an absolute requirement in non-emergency situations, does this mean that the Pope would have the authority, if he so desired, to rewrite the Canons to allow for general absolution as the normative form of the sacrament (an idea to which I certainly wouldn’t be opposed )?

Dear brother Fuerza,

Unless, I’m misreading it, section 1482.of the Catechism seems to indicate that this general absolution is common enough in the Latin Church.

To be honest, I’ve seen general absolution practiced in a Latin Church twice, both times during Lent, at a church where the number of penitents was extraordinarily large. In one of the instances, private confession was held for about three hours, with 5 priests from neighboring parishes, but it seemed the lines were not shortening at all. So the pastor instructed everyone there would be a general absolution. In the other instance, there was a Liturgy for the purpose of the general absolution.

Blessings,
Marduk

In both cases that you mention, the faithful who received only general absolution would have been obligated to make a specific confession as soon as possible afterwards. Even those who receive it in danger of death are required to confess to a priest when possible in the event that they survive.

Would either of you happen to know why this form of the sacrament is not practiced in the Armenian Catholic Church? I’m just wondering if Rome required it as a condition of reunion, or if perhaps at the time of reunion specific confession was still the norm in the Armenian Church (as I’ve heard that it had been in use in the past).

Thank you both for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

Eric

 

[Ghosty]

That’s an interesting perspective, and I suppose that it’s possible. So if specific confession is not an absolute requirement in non-emergency situations, does this mean that the Pope would have the authority, if he so desired, to rewrite the Canons to allow for general absolution as the normative form of the sacrament (an idea to which I certainly wouldn’t be opposed )?

I suppose it’s theoretically possible, but I think it would be unhealthy and problematic, not to mention directly against the Latin tradition.

Peace and God bless!

P.S. Here’s a link to an Armenian guide to the Sacraments and Holidays (and other things as well), in which Confession is discussed. The Bishop who wrote it actually laments that private, particular Confession is no longer widely practiced in the Armenian Church, but mentions that at least in Jerusalem it is. Just thought you might find it interesting.

 

[adstrinity]

So, if I go to a Badarak and recieve Eucharist there, will it fulfill my Sunday obligation and I would not be creating a scandal?

 

[DL82]

Dear brother Fuerza,

Unless, I’m misreading it, section 1482.of the Catechism seems to indicate that this general absolution is common enough in the Latin Church.

To be honest, I’ve seen general absolution practiced in a Latin Church twice, both times during Lent, at a church where the number of penitents was extraordinarily large. In one of the instances, private confession was held for about three hours, with 5 priests from neighboring parishes, but it seemed the lines were not shortening at all. So the pastor instructed everyone there would be a general absolution. In the other instance, there was a Liturgy for the purpose of the general absolution.

Blessings,
Marduk

This general absolution was not valid.

General confession and general absolution can only be used in emergency situations, such as troops going into battle or on a sinking ship. One of the conditions of the validity of such absolution is that the penitent resolve, if they survive, to go and confess to a priest in normal confession.

This happens a lot, the other thing that sometimes happens at such penitential services is that the priest tells you to only confess 1 sin, so that the queue moves through the confessional at a pace. This is also invalid if you have more than 1 mortal sin to confess, as all mortal sins must be confessed for absolution to be given.