Are the Orthodox Catholic?

[NDfan]

From-http://orthodoxwiki.org/One_Holy_Catholic_and_Apostolic_Church

Catholicity is sometimes confused with universality — the idea that the Christian faith is for all men. However, the word was originally used to denote the true Church among a growing horde of heretics who had removed elements from the faith which they disliked, refashioning Christian belief to their pleasure. Catholicity is a qualitative mark: the quality of the whole faith handed down from the apostles.​

Seeing that Rome calls itself the Catholic church,could it be that the Orthodox are not really Catholic(having the quality of the whole faith) because they dont accept or have removed from their faith teachings ,beliefs and dogmas of the “Catholic” Church of Rome?

What a stupid effin question. Catholicity?? Yeah study greek more and you’ll see what the real meaning is IDIOT!!!

 

[Cavaradossi]

What a stupid effin question. Catholicity?? Yeah study greek more and you’ll see what the real meaning is IDIOT!!!

And I presume then, that you have studied Greek and are capable of defining ‘Catholic’ in the original sense of the word?

 

[Harpazo]

What a stupid effin question. Catholicity?? Yeah study greek more and you’ll see what the real meaning is IDIOT!!!

Wow. What is wrong with you?

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[JustaServant]

I was directing this question towards Roman Catholics and shouldnt have posted it here.

This Non Catholic forum is like an underworld dungeon with predators.

I will ask again elsewhere.

Only on the internet have I found such hosility between Catholic and Orthodox. That has never been my experience in ‘real life’. My wife used to attend a Syrian Orthodox Church in her small town many years ago. I attended one service and found it quite nice. Other Orthodox Christians I have met are wonderful people.
I suspect the people saying uncharitable things have more personal issues with the CC (as I did in my fundamentalist days) than doctrinal.

 

[Stornoway]

Cavaradossi;8203380:

Honestly, this question is very provocative, and I wonder if there could be anything gained from discussing it. The Orthodox would say that we contain the fullness of the Christian faith within our Church; the Catholics would disagree and say that they possess the fullness of the Christian faith, while the Orthodox do not. Is there really any point to discussing it further? Things will only get unnecessarily nasty beyond stating the simple fact that the two parties are in disagreement, because any discussion will ultimately degrade into trying to prove that somebody’s Church is lacking in the fullness of the Christian faith.

Lord be with you too, hope you feel better soon

 

[Kristin234]

Only on the internet have I found such hosility between Catholic and Orthodox. That has never been my experience in ‘real life’. My wife used to attend a Syrian Orthodox Church in her small town many years ago. I attended one service and found it quite nice. Other Orthodox Christians I have met are wonderful people.
I suspect the people saying uncharitable things have more personal issues with the CC (as I did in my fundamentalist days) than doctrinal.

Really? My experience has been the complete opposite. Almost everyone on my father’s side is Orthodox except for 3 of his siblings and I have seen so much hostility towards the Catholic Church from both my family members, other Orthodox Christians, and the Orthodox church that I attended when I was younger. Obviously not all Orthodox Christians are like this but this is what I have witnessed.

A couple people that went to that church decided to convert to Catholicism, including a bishop, and they were not happy. It actually became a very big deal, and grudges are still being held even though this was 10 years ago. I also know that Orthodox do not like to be called Catholic even though a lot of the churches do have Catholic in their name, but if you ask if they are Catholic they will go on a rant.

It’s funny because my sister converted to Catholicism and people made a bigger deal about her being Catholic than me going to a Protestant church. You would think it would be the opposite since Orthodoxy is much closer to Catholicism than Protestantism is.

 

[Miriam1947]

As much as we would like a reunion between the Orthodox and Catholic Churches there are one or two issues that would need addressing.

THE STAND OF THE ORTHODOX CHURCH ON CONTROVERSIAL ISSUES
Rev. Dr. Stanley S. Harakas

**The church will permit up to, but not more than, three marriages for any Orthodox Christian. **If both partners are entering a second or third marriage, another form of the marriage ceremony is conducted, much more subdued and penitential in character. Marriages end either through the death of one of the partners or through ecclesiastical recognition of divorce. The Church grants “ecclesiastical divorces” on the basis of the exception given by Christ to his general prohibition of the practice. The Church has frequently deplored the rise of divorce and generally sees divorce as a tragic failure. Yet, the Orthodox Church also recognizes that sometimes the spiritual well-being of Christians caught in a broken and essentially nonexistent marriage justifies a divorce, with the right of one or both of the partners to remarry. Each parish priest is required to do all he can to help couples resolve their differences. If they cannot, and they obtain a civil divorce, they may apply for an ecclesiastical divorce in some jurisdictions of the Orthodox Church. In others, the judgment is left to the parish priest when and if a civilly divorced person seeks to remarry.

(I don’t know if this is the same as an annulment in the Catholic Church nor do I know how many annulments a person may have in the CC. So this might be moot)

The Orthodox Church has a definite, formal and intended attitude toward abortion. It condemns all procedures purporting to abort the embryo or fetus, whether by surgical or chemical means. The Orthodox Church brands abortion as murder; that is, as a premeditated termination of the life of a human being. The only time the Orthodox Church will reluctantly acquiesce to abortion is when the preponderance of medical opinion determines that unless the embryo or fetus is aborted, the mother will die. Decisions of the Supreme Court and State legislatures by which abortion, with or without restrictions, is allowed should be viewed by practicing Christians as an affront to their beliefs in the sanctity of life.

goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7101

 

[Miriam1947]

Bump

 

[Harpazo]

As much as we would like a reunion between the Orthodox and Catholic Churches there are one or two issues that would need addressing.

THE STAND OF THE ORTHODOX CHURCH ON CONTROVERSIAL ISSUES
Rev. Dr. Stanley S. Harakas

**The church will permit up to, but not more than, three marriages for any Orthodox Christian. **If both partners are entering a second or third marriage, another form of the marriage ceremony is conducted, much more subdued and penitential in character. Marriages end either through the death of one of the partners or through ecclesiastical recognition of divorce. The Church grants “ecclesiastical divorces” on the basis of the exception given by Christ to his general prohibition of the practice. The Church has frequently deplored the rise of divorce and generally sees divorce as a tragic failure. Yet, the Orthodox Church also recognizes that sometimes the spiritual well-being of Christians caught in a broken and essentially nonexistent marriage justifies a divorce, with the right of one or both of the partners to remarry. Each parish priest is required to do all he can to help couples resolve their differences. If they cannot, and they obtain a civil divorce, they may apply for an ecclesiastical divorce in some jurisdictions of the Orthodox Church. In others, the judgment is left to the parish priest when and if a civilly divorced person seeks to remarry.

(I don’t know if this is the same as an annulment in the Catholic Church nor do I know how many annulments a person may have in the CC. So this might be moot)

The Orthodox Church has a definite, formal and intended attitude toward abortion. It condemns all procedures purporting to abort the embryo or fetus, whether by surgical or chemical means. The Orthodox Church brands abortion as murder; that is, as a premeditated termination of the life of a human being. The only time the Orthodox Church will reluctantly acquiesce to abortion is when the preponderance of medical opinion determines that unless the embryo or fetus is aborted, the mother will die. Decisions of the Supreme Court and State legislatures by which abortion, with or without restrictions, is allowed should be viewed by practicing Christians as an affront to their beliefs in the sanctity of life.

goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7101

What’s the problem? The Orthodox have always permitted up to 3 marriages, even when Rome was in communion with us. Annulments did not exist until a few hundred years ago.

This might be a good starting point for you.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[ConstantineTG]

Wouldn’t the Eastern Churches in communion with Rome but keep all of the Eastern traditions and practices be considered having the fullness? Therefore the only thing keeping the Eastern Orthodox that are not in communion with Rome from having fullness would be, being in communion with Rome?

From a certain point of view, yes. Others say that communion with Rome is important for 100% fullness of the faith. So some would place Orthodoxy at 99% or more, but below 100% (given there’s an infinite possible decimal places). Now from the Orthodox side they will say they view Rome the same way prior to the schism and it is Rome herself who has deviated from that position and is awaiting for Rome to return to the Orthodox faith.

 

[Miriam1947]

What’s the problem? The Orthodox have always permitted up to 3 marriages, even when Rome was in communion with us. Annulments did not exist until a few hundred years ago.

This might be a good starting point for you.

In Christ,
Andrew

And? I said I had no idea how many annulments a Catholic might have. If that is not an issue, well how cool.

This one is a bit bigger:

The Orthodox Church has a definite, formal and intended attitude toward abortion. It condemns all procedures purporting to abort the embryo or fetus, whether by surgical or chemical means. The Orthodox Church brands abortion as murder; that is, as a premeditated termination of the life of a human being. The only time the Orthodox Church will reluctantly acquiesce to abortion is when the preponderance of medical opinion determines that unless the embryo or fetus is aborted, the mother will die. Decisions of the Supreme Court and State legislatures by which abortion, with or without restrictions, is allowed should be viewed by practicing Christians as an affront to their beliefs in the sanctity of life.

As far as I know abortion is not permitted in the Catholic Church even if the mother may die.

catholic.com/thisrock/2006/0609uan.asp

Abortion and Double Effect
By Matthew Newsome

Legislation to restrict abortion frequently gets shot down by the courts for failing to include an exemption protecting “the life or health of the mother.” The word health lacks a hard definition, and people freely apply it not only to matters of grave physical health but also to mental health, economic health, and even social health. The issue of the life of the mother, though, is explicit and gives lie to the misuse of this exemption in abortion law.

Cases in which a pregnancy may threaten the life of the mother are extremely rare. Former U.S. surgeon general C. Everett Koop has famously stated:
In my thirty-six years of pediatric surgery I have never known of one instance where the child had to be aborted to save the mother’s life. . . . If toward the end of the pregnancy complications arise that threaten the mother’s health, [her obstetrician] will either induce labor or perform a Caesarian section. His intention is to save the life of both the mother and the baby. . . . The baby’s life is never willfully destroyed because the mother’s life is in danger. (Moody Monthly, May 1980)
Most doctors have never encountered a “life of the mother” case. But what if the situation does arise? Is there a moral solution? Let’s begin with a hypothetical: You are a doctor. Your patient is a woman who is not pregnant. She has aggressive uterine cancer, and the only way to treat the cancer is to surgically remove her diseased uterus.

The action of removing her uterus has two effects; one is desired and the other is not. The desired effect is to save her life. The undesired effect is to render her permanently sterile. This, in and of itself, goes against the proper ordering of the woman’s reproductive functions. Are you, the doctor, morally culpable for this wrong? The answer is no. The principle of double effect means that sometimes one must perform an action that is in itself morally good but may also have an unintended ill effect for which the person is not morally culpable.

 

[Harpazo]

And? I said I had no idea how many annulments a Catholic might have. If that is not an issue, well how cool.

Don’t worry, annulments aren’t our thing.

This one is a bit bigger:

The Orthodox Church has a definite, formal and intended attitude toward abortion. It condemns all procedures purporting to abort the embryo or fetus, whether by surgical or chemical means. The Orthodox Church brands abortion as murder; that is, as a premeditated termination of the life of a human being. The only time the Orthodox Church will reluctantly acquiesce to abortion is when the preponderance of medical opinion determines that unless the embryo or fetus is aborted, the mother will die. Decisions of the Supreme Court and State legislatures by which abortion, with or without restrictions, is allowed should be viewed by practicing Christians as an affront to their beliefs in the sanctity of life.

As far as I know abortion is not permitted in the Catholic Church even if the mother may die.

catholic.com/thisrock/2006/0609uan.asp

Abortion and Double Effect
By Matthew Newsome

Legislation to restrict abortion frequently gets shot down by the courts for failing to include an exemption protecting “the life or health of the mother.” The word health lacks a hard definition, and people freely apply it not only to matters of grave physical health but also to mental health, economic health, and even social health. The issue of the life of the mother, though, is explicit and gives lie to the misuse of this exemption in abortion law.

Cases in which a pregnancy may threaten the life of the mother are extremely rare. Former U.S. surgeon general C. Everett Koop has famously stated:
In my thirty-six years of pediatric surgery I have never known of one instance where the child had to be aborted to save the mother’s life. . . . If toward the end of the pregnancy complications arise that threaten the mother’s health, [her obstetrician] will either induce labor or perform a Caesarian section. His intention is to save the life of both the mother and the baby. . . . The baby’s life is never willfully destroyed because the mother’s life is in danger. (Moody Monthly, May 1980)
Most doctors have never encountered a “life of the mother” case. But what if the situation does arise? Is there a moral solution? Let’s begin with a hypothetical: You are a doctor. Your patient is a woman who is not pregnant. She has aggressive uterine cancer, and the only way to treat the cancer is to surgically remove her diseased uterus.

The action of removing her uterus has two effects; one is desired and the other is not. The desired effect is to save her life. The undesired effect is to render her permanently sterile. This, in and of itself, goes against the proper ordering of the woman’s reproductive functions. Are you, the doctor, morally culpable for this wrong? The answer is no. The principle of double effect means that sometimes one must perform an action that is in itself morally good but may also have an unintended ill effect for which the person is not morally culpable.

Nor is it in the Orthodox Church. Those in the GOA are misinformed, just as you will have entire RC dioceses misinformed, too.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[Miriam1947]

Harpazo, who are those people? Do they speak for the Orthodox Church?

 

[Paul_theApostle]

I was directing this question towards Roman Catholics and shouldnt have posted it here.

This Non Catholic forum is like an underworld dungeon with predators.

I will ask again elsewhere.

I am sorry for these comments

I was asking Catholics basically if they view the Orthodox as lacking in Catholicity or having the fullness of faith,and to get the opinion of Catholics about this.

 

[Harpazo]

Harpazo, who are those people? Do they speak for the Orthodox Church?

The website of the Greek Archdiocese? As far as I know they only speak for themselves and not on behalf of the Orthodox Church, let alone all Greeks. I’ll send the webmaster an email today. Thanks for pointing this out.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[Miriam1947]

The website of the Greek Archdiocese? As far as I know they only speak for themselves and not on behalf of the Orthodox Church, let alone all Greeks. I’ll send the webmaster an email today. Thanks for pointing this out.

In Christ,
Andrew

Thanks. I did a search and that is the site that came up. I would never want to post anything that is not true.

 

[CopticChristian]

If you’re asking do we consider ourselves Catholic (even with a capital C!) then yes. I know many who would introduce themselves and in their minds consider themselves an Orthodox Catholic Christian who have no connection to Rome. While I personally wouldn’t go so far as to tell someone “I’m an Orthodox Catholic”, because of the needless confusion it might bring, I easily consider myself as such.

Catholic means encompassing the whole, by which we mean encompassing the whole faith. Obviously we have this in each diocese, let alone when all the diocese are united together, so we are Catholic.

A common…idk, slogan, in Orthodoxy: “We are Orthodox but not Jewish. We are Catholic but not Roman. We are not a denomination, we are Pre-Denominational.”

The Orthodox Churches identify themselves as One Holy Catholic Apostolic. They are spoken of as sister churches. Sisters sometimes do not talk to each other or agree. They are East and West OHCAC. Soon, they shall speak and soon we shall listen. Soon we all will learn from our siblings. It might be prudent to start learning now. No one is stopping us.

 

[GaryTaylor]

The Orthodox Churches identify themselves as One Holy Catholic Apostolic. They are spoken of as sister churches. Sisters sometimes do not talk to each other or agree. They are East and West OHCAC. Soon, they shall speak and soon we shall listen. Soon we all will learn from our siblings. It might be prudent to start learning now. No one is stopping us.

That would be the correct thinking.

Peace

 

[dvdjs]

What’s the problem? The Orthodox have always permitted up to 3 marriages, even when Rome was in communion with us. Annulments did not exist until a few hundred years ago.

The Orthodox have not “always permitted up to three marriages”. The practice of the Orthodox has gradually changed from from excommunication those marrying outside the church after divorce, to remarriage of divorced people in the church with no excommunication and, according to a ROCOR priest who has done such marriage ceremonies, scarcely any discernible difference between a first or second marriage ceremony. Similarly, the grounds for divorce have gradually expanded from the very limited grounds read into the words of Christ, to a myriad of reasons that are used to justify divorce. It is not surprising that this latitude is leading some to raise issues about economy for the latest new ideas about marriage.

 

[Cavaradossi]

The Orthodox have not “always permitted up to three marriages”. The practice of the Orthodox has gradually changed from from excommunication those marrying outside the church after divorce, to remarriage of divorced people in the church with no excommunication and, according to a ROCOR priest who has done such marriage ceremonies, scarcely any discernible difference between a first or second marriage ceremony. Similarly, the grounds for divorce have gradually expanded from the very limited grounds read into the words of Christ, to a myriad of reasons that are used to justify divorce. It is not surprising that this latitude is leading some to raise issues about economy for the latest new ideas about marriage.

Please provide me with a credible source for your claim about the handling of divorce within the Orthodox Church gradually changing after the schism; I would like see the evidence for this. Also, please provide the name of that ROCOR priest. While it is my understanding that the Russian Church will perform the crowning ceremony again, while the Greek Churches will not, I have never heard anybody tell me that a second marriage ceremony is done without a penitential tone.