Are the Orthodox right?

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There were 12 at the time of the schism in 1054? I know now there’s quite a few like Russia and basically all the national churches even the OCA. At that time I thought it was the pentarchy of Rome, Alexandria, Constantinople, Antioch, and Jerusalem. There were more even then?
 
Interesting. The title has Reformation in the title. You really think it’s unbiased?
As such, texts that lack a dog in the fight are usually best.
And I think the early texts that I cited speak for themselves.

Let’s review.

(1) You have Christ naming ONE Apostle as his CHIEF steward.

(2) Already in the first century, you have the Roman Church intervening in another church, assuming authority – issuing commands – from Christ and the Holy Spirit.

(3) In the early 2nd century, you have an Eastern bishop granting his flock to the care of Rome in his stead. Not to mention that his tone to Rome is entirely different than his other letters, at least partially explained by his deference to Rome as the presiding church.

(4) A second century Bishop of Rome claiming the ability to excommunicate entire churches from the one communion of the Universal Church.

(5) A non-Roman bishop saying that ALL churches must agree with Rome because of its superior origin. Can this be said of the Ecumenical Patriarch and his Church today? Must all particular Eastern Orthodox churches agree with Constantinople’s teachings? Regardless, Irenaeus says this must be done re: Rome*

Pulling these 1st and 2nd century models together, you have:

A figure who is the Christ-appointed Chief Steward of the Church who can intervene in the affairs of distant churches, even excommunicate entire churches from the common communion; who is regarded as the presider and shepherd of the other churches; and who is regarded as the go-to source for orthodoxy and unity. What’s missing from the Catholic understanding of the Pope here?
 
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I don’t know. While doctrinally there is pretty solid union between the various Orthodox groups, political issues can be huge. Look at the tensions within the EO communion right now over Ukraine… didn’t the MP go so far as to say it may come to bloodshed?
 
What’s that between the Russian and Ukrainian Orthodox Churches? I believe that is more political than religious in origin. And it probably effects eastern Catholics as well.
 
Before the separation the Bishop of Rome, now called the Pope, was one of twelve bishops who headed the Church. Because of Peter he had special authority, but he was only considered the first among equals, in no way the head of the Church. This was the way of things until the Schism. The Church had twelve men leading it, yet it was still the Church.
Refuted here And here
 
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And it probably effects eastern Catholics as well.
Indeed…it’s a reason why we can’t have our own Patriarch. He’s officially referred to Major Archbishop although all Ukrainian Catholics refer to him unofficially as Patriarch Sviatoslav, even in Divine Liturgy.
 
Again and again I have referenced the Chieti Document which was put together in September of 2016 by the Joint International Commission for Theological Dialogue between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church.

In regards to the structure of the Church at the Universal level in paragraph 15:

Between the fourth and the seventh centuries, the order ( taxis ) of the five patriarchal sees came to be recognized, based on and sanctioned by the ecumenical councils, with the see of Rome occupying the first place, exercising a primacy of honour ( presbeia tes times ), followed by the sees of Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem, in that specific order, according to the canonical tradition.

Paragraph 16:

In the West, the primacy of the see of Rome was understood, particularly from the fourth century onwards, with reference to Peter’s role among the Apostles. The primacy of the bishop of Rome among the bishops was gradually interpreted as a prerogative that was his because he was successor of Peter, the first of the apostles.(12) This understanding was not adopted in the East, which had a different interpretation of the Scriptures and the Fathers on this point. Our dialogue may return to this matter in the future.

And paragraph 19:

Over the centuries, a number of appeals were made to the bishop of Rome, also from the East, in disciplinary matters, such as the deposition of a bishop. An attempt was made at the Synod of Sardica (343) to establish rules for such a procedure.(14) Sardica was received at the Council in Trullo (692).(15) The canons of Sardica determined that a bishop who had been condemned could appeal to the bishop of Rome, and that the latter, if he deemed it appropriate, might order a retrial, to be conducted by the bishops in the province neighbouring the bishop’s own. Appeals regarding disciplinary matters were also made to the see of Constantinople,(16) and to other sees. Such appeals to major sees were always treated in a synodical way. Appeals to the bishop of Rome from the East expressed the communion of the Church, but the bishop of Rome did not exercise canonical authority over the churches of the East.

Yes, the bishop of Rome held a place of honor and yes, bishops of the East would make appeals to him on disciplinary matters, but he, the bishop of Rome, “did not exercise canonical authority over the churches of the East.” The document speaks many time about the bishop of Rome and his importance of communion in the Church (this is why I am Byzantine Catholic). There is need for more dialogue on this issue.

ZP
 
Interesting. The title has Reformation in the title. You really think it’s unbiased?
Respectfully, that’s what that particular historical event is called in broader academia - The [Protestant] Reformation. If that’s unacceptable for you, then that’s indicative of how far from “objective” your views land on the issue.
Let’s review.
Let’s.
(1) You have Christ naming ONE Apostle as his CHIEF steward.
Sure, that he calls “Satan” 4,5 verses later. So if Peter is the Primus (as I don’t doubt he is/was), then he’s certainly fully fallible - or did Christ’s supposed preservation of the infallible Petrine function kick in some unnamed time later?
It’s also worth noting that there is zero evidence in scripture that the Petrine function was meant to continue after the death of Peter. Peter’s supposed successor is mentioned in scripture (Linus), but he’s never identified as such.
(2) Already in the first century, you have the Roman Church intervening in another church, assuming authority – issuing commands – from Christ and the Holy Spirit.
Two issues - First we read “the Roman Church” intervened, not “pope” Clement. And with such an impeccable pedigree and assembly, who’d question it? It was the only Church founded by both premier apostles and the capital of the empire. If you were a Christian thinker at the time, Rome was where you were meant to be.

Second, the Roman Church’s role as an arbiter isn’t challenged by me. But it wasn’t the first court of jurisdiction - Corinth was.
(3) In the early 2nd century, you have an Eastern bishop granting his flock to the care of Rome in his stead. Not to mention that his tone to Rome is entirely different than his other letters, at least partially explained by his deference to Rome as the presiding church.
Just browsing over the letter, where is it that he grants Rome the bishopric of his flock? Serious question.

And the tone is different solely because he is in Roman custody on his way to execution.
(4) A second century Bishop of Rome claiming the ability to excommunicate entire churches from the one communion of the Universal Church.
If you’re referring to Victor, he got backed down. Victor’s failed attempt is prime evidence for Roman primacy vs. supremacy in the early western Church.
(5) A non-Roman bishop saying that ALL churches must agree with Rome because of its superior origin.
You’re referring to Irenaeus and the quote continues "inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere.
Pulling these 1st and 2nd century models together, you have:
No, starting with a pro-Catholic bias, you have your conclusion.

It’s the same behavior that tee-totalers use to say that the bible advocates abstinence from alcohol.
What’s missing from the Catholic understanding of the Pope here?
Infallibility. Supremacy. Immediate jurisdiction. Pretty much anything associated with the post-middle ages view of the papacy.
 
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Infallibility. Supremacy. Immediate jurisdiction. Pretty much anything associated with the post-middle ages view of the papacy.
There are 15 independent Orthodox churches, as separate churches, with no ONE church among the 15 to bring them together as ONE Church. As a result there is no “Orthodox Church” as Card Kasper said in 2002. 14 years later, After 900+ years being separated from Peter, the Orthodox tried to have a Pan Orthodox council, the Russian Orthodox who comprise ~60% of the Orthodox, boycotted the council. No Pan Orthodox council took place. The remaining 14 Orthodox churches then, make up the remainder ~40% of the total number of Orthodox.
Actually:
those who stayed away were the Antioch Patriarchate and Orthodox churches in Georgia and Bulgaria and Russia

I can’t think of a single instance where the pope called a council (as in ecumenical) and a majority of the Church, via representatives, boycotted.

The Orthodox being in schism from the Catholic Church, are not united even with each other.

The papacy has always been there. Jesus established Peter’s position.
 
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In the words of Irenaeus:
But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles. Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition ( Against Heresies 3:3:2 [ A.D. 189 ]).
 
False; there cannot be a plurality of true Churches. The Church is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. Just because a certain church has valid sacraments, that doesn’t make that particular church true (or valid, in your terminology). One of the two churches has to be schismatic and therefore a false church. The issue boils down to whether the Catholic Church went into schism with the rest of the Church (the Orthodox Catholic Church, as is the official name of the Eastern Orthodox Church, implies that it alone is the true Church by its very name [right-believing universal Church]), or whether the Eastern Orthodox Church went into schism with the rest of the Church (the Catholic Church, which the name also implies that it alone is the true Church [the universal Church]. If the Catholic Church is THE universal Church, then it therefore is the only true Church.)

The issue really boils down to the papacy. If Catholic claims on the papacy are true, then everything the Catholic Church teaches is true. If Catholic claims on the papacy are false, then the Catholic Church is also false.
 
In the words of Irenaeus:
But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles. Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition ( Against Heresies 3:3:2 [ A.D. 189 ]).
😎 one of my favorite quotes. Irenaeus was from Smyrna in the East. And became Bishop of Lyon in the West. He was taught by Bp Polycarp of Smyrna, a direct disciple of the apostle John
 
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LaudeturIesus:
False; there cannot be a plurality of true Churches.
The Catholic Church recognizes the Orthodox Churches or “true Churches” and “Sister Churches”

ZP
Re: true churches
Schism is a mortal sin. Those Orthodox who are separated from Peter and those in union with Peter are in schism.

Re: sister churches
  1. http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...on_cfaith_doc_20000630_chiese-sorelle_en.html 2000
  2. https://www.catholicworldreport.com/2013/05/02/sister-churches-a-clarification/ Clarification 2013
 
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There are 15 independent Orthodox churches, as separate churches, with no ONE church among the 15 to bring them together as ONE Church.
The unifying anchors of Orthodoxy are Jesus Christ and his Holy Tradition. The Orthodox do have the Ecumenical Patriarch that serves in the primacy of honor, but they do not have the functional equivalent of a pope because Christianity doesn’t call for it.

any Christian clamoring for a taskmastering sergeant-at-arms has forgotten God the Father’s critique of the Children of Israel’s demand for a temporal king and God the Son’s critique of the Pharisees.

Like it or not, the Orthodox are ONE CHURCH. You just refuse to see that for polemical purposes. Which I kinda understand.
As a result there is no “Orthodox Church” as Card Kasper said in 2002.
A Catholic Cardinal was critical of the legitimacy of the rival Orthodox Church? How very odd…
No Pan Orthodox council took place.
The fact that this is perfectly fine is difficult to accept for anyone who loves Catholic ecclesiology. If a Church wants to abstain from council, they are allowed to do that. It’s probably the single greatest reason Orthodoxy doesn’t have nearly the level of dogmatization and “development” seen in the west.
The remaining 14 Orthodox churches then, make up the remainder ~40% of the total number of Orthodox.
Is that a problem that so many Orthodox are Russian?

Is it a problem that a similar ratio of Catholics are Latin American?
I can’t think of a single instance where the pope called a council (as in ecumenical) and a majority of the Church, via representatives, boycotted.
Really? I can.
The first seven ecumenical councils weren’t called by a pope, so they don’t count. After that, the east was gone.
Come to think of it, I can’t think of a council actually called by a pope that was actually ecumenical.
The Orthodox being in schism from the Catholic Church, are not united even with each other.
They are divided only in your mind and those who think likewise. And I can’t do anything about that.
The papacy has always been there. Jesus established Peter’s position.
And just like the story in Isaiah, they keys have passed because of amassing Petrine pride that Peter himself foreshadowed in Matthew 16:22-23.

Christ guaranteed the Church, not Peter or any other fallible man.
 
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I myself am insecure with my Catholicism. Especially when my irreligious friends joke that I change my religion every 2 seconds (I was raised as a non-denominational Evangelical, was an Anglo-Catholic Episcopalian for a year, and I’ve now been a Catholic for a year and a half). Like countless other Catholics, I’m scandalized and dissaffected by ubiquitous liturgical abuses, the Novus Ordo, Vatican II, Pope Francis, etc.

I feel torn. I don’t know how I can remain Catholic in good conscience, but I don’t know if I could be Orthodox in good conscience either. You don’t know how it feels until you come out of Mass in tears, asking yourself what has happened to your Church.

Both sides seem to make good points. Becoming Orthodox would require me to give up many things that I hold dear. (post-schism Catholic saints who at best would be material heretics, indulgences, the Traditional Latin Mass, scholastic theology, etc). Yet, I’m not certain that what I believe as a Catholic is false, that maybe the Church is just in one of its biggest low points righr now. Of course, I want to belong wherever the Truth lies and I pray that God guide me.
 
That document is highly kind to our Orthodox brethren 😉

It’s misleading to say the primacy of Rome re: Peter came into being at the fourth century. It was the earliest theory of the primacy we have! And is clear from 3rd and 2nd century.

And it was recognized in the East. But if you’re writing an ecumenical document with the Orthodox, you can’t really say that. But the Byzantine Orthodox are not the only Eastern Christians. And we even have Byzantine Christians, like Maximus the Confessor, who clearly had the full-fledged Catholic understanding of the Pope even in his day.
 
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Sure, that he calls “Satan” 4,5 verses later. So if Peter is the Primus (as I don’t doubt he is/was), then he’s certainly fully fallible - or did Christ’s supposed preservation of the infallible Petrine function kick in some unnamed time later?
I’m becoming discouraged that you even understand the Catholic view.

The context is quite clear that Christ called Peter “Satan” because of his doubt and misunderstanding. Do you really think Peter in that moment was acting “ex cathedra,” i.e., speaking the Faith for the entire Christian community? Would that even make sense at this moment in time, considering Christ was walking around the Earth and the Church was yet to be fully established?

If anything, this goes to show the Catholic view, since even Peter acting as “Satan” does not thrust his office aside. Instead, Peter remains the Church’s leader until his death, even in the midst of his own scandal and sin.
It’s also worth noting that there is zero evidence in scripture that the Petrine function was meant to continue after the death of Peter.
If Peter isn’t meant to have a successor, then out goes the Orthodox theory as well; since in your view, the primacy in the Church (Constantinople) is the continuation of Peter’s role of primacy.

Besides, the historical witness is that he did have a successor – and that this successor in Rome held the primacy. And, furthermore, the Scripture implies Petrine succession since (1) it teaches apostolic succession generally and (2) depicts Peter’s leadership as an established role — else what’s the point of the Keys?
First we read “the Roman Church” intervened, not “pope” Clement. And with such an impeccable pedigree and assembly, who’d question it?
Huh? Rome would naturally be tied to its bishop, as would every particular church. Review Ignatius of Antioch. It’s clear that by the late 1st century, the center of unity in each church was the Bishop. You can’t separate the local church and its monarchical bishop. Besides, we know from later commentary that the letter is always spoken of as “Clement’s letter.”
Just browsing over the letter, where is it that he grants Rome the bishopric of his flock?
Chapter 9:
  • Remember the church of Syria in your prayers. In my place they have God for their shepherd. Jesus Christ alone will look after them — he, and your love.
Natural enough. This goes along with what Ignatius has to say about Rome’s “presiding in love” and always caring for the churches abroad.
If you’re referring to Victor, he got backed down. Victor’s failed attempt is prime evidence for Roman primacy vs. supremacy in the early western Church.
Not really, because no one rejected his ability to do so. Irenaeus begged that he didn’t. Again, Victor summoned the various synods, and his act of excommunication was essentially a statement that those in disagreement were outside the universal communion — since everyone else agreed with Rome’s Easter.

But, even if we admitted your interpretation, that would mean that Rome itself understood its own primacy in terms of supremacy even at this early date 😉
 
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Like countless other Catholics, I’m scandalized and dissaffected by ubiquitous liturgical abuses, the Novus Ordo, Vatican II, Pope Francis, etc.
While I personally don’t see the trouble with Novus Ordo, Vatican II, or our Holy Father, I can at least point out this: You said it yourself — scandalized by abuses.

You can only be scandalized by something that shouldn’t be — by a distortion of the truth. So the fact is, the true Catholic faith is under there, beneath perceived scandals and abuses. There will always be scandals and sinners and confusion. There always have been. The Church is never perfect; but we ALL are called to be reformers in our own way, to be saints in our own way, to uplift the Church — not to wait for it to get better on its own.

Now the Eastern Churches. You bring up a good point. Leaving for the Orthodox means you will leave behind many of your Roman Catholic customs. But the other is not true: If you remain Catholic, you can still appreciate and practice various Eastern Christian traditions — and not just the Byzantine Orthodox! For Eastern churches are in communion with Rome, coming from all ancient Eastern traditions: Greek Byzantine, yes, but also Syriac, Chaldean, Coptic, Syro-Malabar, etc.
 
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