Are the rich more virtuous than the poor?

[Peggy_in_Burien]

You do understand, don’t you, that those who study subjects such as out of wedlock births are not relying on observations of pregnant girls but on public birth records. Or are the rich hiding this as well?

Maybe rich girls rely more on contraception or abortions?

 

[LilyM]

I see, so your belief is that the rich are doing these things as much or more than the poor but we just don’t see it because they are more private about it.

But shouldn’t we then notice poor virtuous behavior more than rich virtuous behavior?.

No - the good the rich do is hyper publicised. When Joe Q Public chases down a mugger who has snatched a lady’s purse it makes zero news. When Brad Pitt or George Clooney does the same, their PR agents tip the paparazzi off so that it makes headlines. Or at least they’d be seen and photographed doing it anyway (because they are followed 98% of the time) with the same result.

 

[Armyvet007]

I very much doubt that the vast majority of saints were rich [materially].

 

[graciew]

You do understand, don’t you, that those who study subjects such as out of wedlock births are not relying on observations of pregnant girls but on public birth records. Or are the rich hiding this as well?

The rich have always had an easier access to abortion.Also poor people form hispanic race,which constitutes a vast majority of the poor in US,have a cultural different approach to having babies young an out of wedlock because they have seen it happen to their parents,grandparents,This may explain the rsults.And this is no racial issue,I am hispanic.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

The rich have always had an easier access to abortion.Also poor people form hispanic race,which constitutes a vast majority of the poor in US,have a cultural different approach to having babies young an out of wedlock because they have seen it happen to their parents,grandparents,This may explain the rsults.And this is no racial issue,I am hispanic.

If that were the case you would see higher rates of abortion among the rich but that’s not the case.

(And, by the way, to avoid the whole race issue the author studied only whites.)

I very much doubt that the vast majority of saints were rich [materially].

Well, as I noted in the opening post, Murray is talking about American, not Catholic virtues but the two are not disjoint. Contrary to the wishful thinking of some, poverty does correlate with crime which is why so many have tried to explain crime in terms of poverty. Murray, though, is primarily concerned with virtuous behaviors that keep one out of poverty or vices that lead to poverty and, in particular, with trends indicating that lower classes are becoming less virtuous.

Here is an overview of a study that will shed some light on this:

brookings.edu/~/media/Files/events/2009/1027_opportunity_society/1027_opportunity_society_presentation.pdf

The short version is this, to avoid poverty:

• Stay in school
• Get a job
• Get married before you have kids

Three things to note. First, this applies only to the American poor, not the poor of Africa or first century Judea.

Second, it’s not anything surprising. In fact, it looks pretty easy. But it’s obviously not. To judge from the trends that are worrying Murray, it’s getting harder.

And third, there is nothing here contrary to the teaching of the Church. Waiting to get married before having kids is certainly consistent with Church teaching.

 

[meltzerboy]

weeklystandard.com/articles/mind-gap_633403.html

Although Charles Murray has studied American, not Catholic virtues, I think it is still worth asking: What if it really is the case that the poor are primarily suffering from bad moral choices and that efforts over the last century to relieve their suffering have only served to create the very moral hazards that have led them to make these bad moral choices?

Isn’t Charles Murray that controversial psychologist who strongly suggested in the “Bell Curve” that Whites, by nature, are more intelligent than Blacks? I would take what Murray says with large grains of salt.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Isn’t Charles Murray that controversial psychologist who strongly suggested in the “Bell Curve” that Whites, by nature, are more intelligent than Blacks? I would take what Murray says with large grains of salt.

He was a coauthor but he’s not a psychologist, that was the other author. I suspect the reaction to the Bell Curve is why he chose to focus on whites only in this study; for some people anything remotely connected with racism warrants ignoring the science.

 

[graciew]

If that were the case you would see higher rates of abortion among the rich but that’s not the case.

(And, by the way, to avoid the whole race issue the author studied only whites.)

Well, as I noted in the opening post, Murray is talking about American, not Catholic virtues but the two are not disjoint. Contrary to the wishful thinking of some, poverty does correlate with crime which is why so many have tried to explain crime in terms of poverty. Murray, though, is primarily concerned with virtuous behaviors that keep one out of poverty or vices that lead to poverty and, in particular, with trends indicating that lower classes are becoming less virtuous.
.

To be frank,if he studied only white people,and intends to evaluate poverty as a whole in US,I personally would disregard the results for an uncomprehensive variety in the selection.
I do not agree to assign virtue to social classes,when it is something personal.

 

[sw85]

Sure, in lots of cases poverty is strongly associated with bad moral decisions. (Think of someone having a kid at age 15 – statistically speaking such people are very likely to wind up at the bottom of the SES ladder). I don’t know if the former necessarily leads to the latter directly, though. I think the relationship may be mediated by self-control, which is obviously very important with respect to moral behavior but also with respect to things like working hard, studying diligently, waking up one time, not backtalking to your superiors, and all the things that generally lead to success in life. There’s plenty of research in social psych on the topic.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

To be frank,if he studied only white people,and intends to evaluate poverty as a whole in US,I personally would disregard the results for an uncomprehensive variety in the selection.

Unfortunately, if he did his study across races then it would likely be dismissed as racism. So he’s damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t. Sad.

I do not agree to assign virtue to social classes,when it is something personal.

Of course, virtue is personal. But when it is strongly correlated with something then that is worthy of study. If, for example, left handed people were more likely to commit banking fraud that would certainly attract the attention of social scientists.

In this case, what Murray is finding is that, among whites, the poor are abandoning traditional virtues like getting married before having babies whereas the rich are rediscovering and more consistently exhibiting these virtues and that this seems to be driving a growing gap between the rich and the poor.

The question of why the poor are poor is an important question for those genuinely interested in helping the poor escape poverty. The virtue thesis that he has advanced suggests that helping the poor should entail reversing these trends and teach these virtues to the poor, something the Catholic Church used to do.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Sure, in lots of cases poverty is strongly associated with bad moral decisions. (Think of someone having a kid at age 15 – statistically speaking such people are very likely to wind up at the bottom of the SES ladder). I don’t know if the former necessarily leads to the latter directly, though. I think the relationship may be mediated by self-control, which is obviously very important with respect to moral behavior but also with respect to things like working hard, studying diligently, waking up one time, not backtalking to your superiors, and all the things that generally lead to success in life. There’s plenty of research in social psych on the topic.

Yeah, a lot of these connections are very indirect. There are, as you suggest, some recent studies that suggest that self-control is an essential core virtue the absence of which predicts many bad things in later life including, not surprisingly, pre-marital sex and out-of-wedlock child bearing. And that, in turn, has the worst affect on the children. I don’t think he is suggesting that people who have premarital sex are sent directly to skid row.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I think your initial question “are the rich more virtuous than the poor?” is not really a question that can be answered. How can you really “measure” someones sinfullness? That is really what it boils down to. Is a poor person more sinful than a rich person? Because we cannot measure what is in a person’s heart all we can measure is what we can observe.

That’s an interesting question but it’s not the question that Murray is addressing. It’s quite obvious that we can’t measure sin for all the obvious reasons most important of which is that sin, as you noted, is not merely doing wrong.

However, we can measure wrongdoing. And we can correlate wrondoing with other observables such as other wrongdoing and with income, education, etc.

Now it is an open question whether we can do anything with that knowledge.

If, for example, the studies are right that three simple virtues, if practiced, would eliminate the bulk of poverty, it doesn’t automatically follow that people will say, aha!, no more premarital sex for me. And it’s not obvious how others can influence the poor to practice these virtues.

But it’s at least a start.

Many people are monetarily poor because, quite simply they were born into poverty and the cycle continues. Others are poor because of illness or disability. Some are poor because of a decision to use drugs or engage in illegal activity or violence which winds them up in jail, down the wrong path and likely into poverty.

These are all interesting possibilities but the point is that they can be studied and tested against observations. Of course, even if a general trend such as Murray observes can be identified and quantified it doesn’t follow that everyone is poor for the same reason. But generalities are a good place to start, especially when you are discussing how to deal with the poor in general.

Many are monetarily rich because, quite simply they were born into wealth and the cycle continues. Others are rich because of good business decisions, talent, investing and good choices. Others are rich by taking advantage of others such as rich drug lords, insider-trading investers and thieves.

Thank you for asking the question but I don’t think it can be properly answered no matter how many studies are done because it is dificult to measure sinfullness.

I think we can at least answer some of the simple forms of the question.

 

[graciew]

Murray´s book from which the comment you posted was taken,is called “MInd the gap,the rich get richer and the poor are broken”.And it says that he is just describing not trying to explain.I would move Murray away from discussion if we have not read the book to be fair to the author.
Second,you ended up your opening with another question different from the title of the thread.If I understand it well,you are kind of asking if all/some good purposes of the rich to help the poor have only triggered the opposite effect,and open it to discussion.
Third,the title of the thread is now a different question,and it has to be restricted to Us white.
So,I am finding it difficult to understand what you intend to address,respectfully,though I also appreciate your intention to post something interesting.

 

[revert_jen]

jmcrae;9080552:

Young offenders do community service in addition to time spent in a juvenile facility. I never heard of adults doing community service in lieu of paying a fine or jail time.

It’s pretty common here in the case of traffic infractions. Usually when people go to jail it’s because they ignored a court summons. I’ve never heard of anyone going to jail for an inability to pay a traffic fine.

I can, unfortunately () tell you what happens. When I was 21 or so, I was pretty poor, and I committed a misdemeanor that ended up with a fine for $95, which I couldn’t pay. The sheriff’s office set up a payment plan where I paid $7.50 a month or so until I had paid it all. There was no suggestion of jail, and nobody mentioned community service either. Possibly mention of both might have come up if the fine were significantly larger, though.

Toward the subject of the thread, the rich may be deterred from some actions by the fact that they have more to lose. And they’re unlikely to commit any petty property crimes, because they don’t need to. That wouldn’t make them more virtuous, since that is just a practical consideration, rather than an exercise of virtue. But they might appear better-behaved in statistics. OTOH, the crimes of, say, a Bernie Madoff couldn’t be committed by a poor man, and hurt far more people.

Personally, the whole camel and eye-of-needle thing makes me think that the rich are perhaps given more temptations than the poor. IMO, people are just people. It may make sense to gether information on their behavior, but it’s not possible to gather statistics on their virtue. (That’s more a comment on the title of the thread than on the author quoted by the OP.)

–Jen

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Murray´s book from which the comment you posted was taken,is called “MInd the gap,the rich get richer and the poor are broken”.And it says that he is just describing not trying to explain.I would move Murray away from discussion if we have not read the book to be fair to the author.
Second,you ended up your opening with another question different from the title of the thread.If I understand it well,you are kind of asking if all/some good purposes of the rich to help the poor have only triggered the opposite effect,and open it to discussion.
Third,the title of the thread is now a different question,and it has to be restricted to Us white.
So,I am finding it difficult to understand what you intend to address,respectfully,though I also appreciate your intention to post something interesting.

All of these are interestng topics for discussion; I never intended to police the thread other than to turn back ad hominem attacks on the author.

 

[PeterGStanley]

A lot of poor people are there for many reason unseen.

Shame and guilt which they can not break away from , endless abuse from family , friends and strangers causing drug and alcohol abuse and broken spirits . People have learned not to trust because of heartbreak and brokenness that follows every abusive relationship. Of course that affects their ability to make major decisions for their own future.What we don’t see is that people begin to believe that they are not worthy of anything better, that they have to suffer through whatever situation they’re in.What we don’t see is the shame and guilt that people internalize, coming to believe their suffering is entirely their own fault.From the outside, it’s hard to understand the paralyzed life.This powerlessness can come for a learned helplessness, sometimes stemming from the fact that in their formative years they experienced no success when they attempted to escape suffering.These are the true victims — the ones overwhelmed by life time and time again.
These are the very people Jesus asks us to embrace and help - not to judge them.He tells us when we look in their faces we are looking at him - do you see Jesus when you look at these people?

 

[triumphguy]

Charles Murray, who has spent his life studying this subject, seems to have come to a different conclusion. What do you think accounts for the difference between your observations and his?

Having spent my life studying this subject I can say:

Rich people are more likely to be in a position to commit white collar crimes (eg., stealing pension money from pensioners), getting away with millions of dollars, and if caught spend only a few years in jail.

Whereas the poor are not in such a privileged situation, can’t spend millions on lawyers, and usually steal something relatively trivial (in comparison to the pension funds of pensioners) and get the maximum sentence the law allows.

The poor are usually “uglier,” not as groomed or well dressed, as well spoken or as well represented as the rich. This all counts in court.

Though with criminals like Conrad Black the tide does seem to be turning.

 

[graciew]

I’ve noticed that, too. It’s one reason why I enjoy volunteering at the homeless shelter - the men are so very polite, and openly grateful for even the smallest favours.

This open gratitude towards the smallest favours,the little things in life, would be for me what to be poor in the heart means.I like your remark,it leads me to rich and poor “in the pocket” people I´ve know who are humble and grateful ·in their hearts.Virtue no matter your social position.

 

[Lochias]

Personally, the whole camel and eye-of-needle thing makes me think that the rich are perhaps given more temptations than the poor.

This. According to what Jesus said, it seems that, for the rich, it is at the very least much harder to be virtuous than it is for the poor.

 

[Schism_hater]

Why asked a promoter of the conservative/libertarian ideology such a question as “Are the rich more virtuous than the poor?”

What do you think he’s going to say? They ALL say the same thing, over and over again. They control the lion’s share of the world’s wealth. They don’t want to share. So, they need political and religious ideologies to justify their greediness, and to fight off taxes and and regulations.

Charles Murray is a mere human being, who, in a couple years, will be utterly forgotten by everyone on the earth (just as will I, and most of you too).

Why not ask The LORD OF THE UNIVERSE?

Our LORD JESUS CHRIST, who has not be forgotten for 2,000 years, and who will never be forgotten, said:

Luke 6:20-21 Then he looked up at his disciples and said: 'Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God.

'Blessed are you who are hungry now, for you will be filled. 'Blessed are you who weep now, for you will laugh.

Luke 4:16-19 'The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to bring good news to the poor.

Matthew 25:34-36 Then the king will say to those at his right hand, “Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for** I was hungry and you gave me food**, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing…”

Mark 10:21-22 Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said, "You lack one thing; go, sell what you own, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me." When he heard this, he was shocked and went away grieving, for he had many possessions.

Mark 12:41-44 He sat down opposite the treasury, and watched the crowd putting money into the treasury. Many rich people put in large sums. 42 A poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which are worth a penny. 43 Then he called his disciples and said to them, “Truly I tell you, this poor widow has put in more than all those who are contributing to the treasury. 44** For all of them have contributed out of their abundance**; but she out of her poverty has put in everything she had, all she had to live on.”

Luke 14:12-14 He said also to the one who had invited him, “When you give a luncheon or a dinner, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors, in case they may invite you in return, and you would be repaid. But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, and the blind. And you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you, for you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”

Luke 16:19-25 "**There was a rich man **who was dressed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores,… But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in agony.

Luke 12:16-21 Then he told them a parable: “The land of a rich man produced abundantly. And he thought to himself, ‘What should I do, for I have no place to store my crops?’ Then he said, 'I will do this: I will pull down my barns and build larger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. And I will say to my soul, ‘Soul, you have ample goods laid up for many years; relax, eat, drink, be merry.’ But God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your life is being demanded of you. And the things you have prepared, whose will they be?’ So it is with those who store up treasures for themselves but are not rich toward God.”

The official Catechism of the Catholic Church, the Church founded and safeguarded by the LORD OF THE UNIVERSE says:

2448 "In its various forms - material deprivation, unjust oppression, physical and psychological illness and death - human misery is the obvious sign of the inherited condition of frailty and need for salvation in which man finds himself as a consequence of original sin. This misery elicited the compassion of Christ the Savior, who willingly took it upon himself and identified himself with the least of his brethren. Hence, those who are oppressed by poverty are the object of a preferential love on the part of the Church**** which, since her origin and in spite of the failings of many of her members, has not ceased to work for their relief, defense, and liberation through numerous works of charity which remain indispensable always and everywhere."

There are many in politics who hate all these teachings of CHRIST and THE CHURCH.

Many prefer the teachings of thinkers as AYN RAND, who promoted a ruthless pursuit of self interest. It is shocking to me so see many professing Christians and Catholics are big fans of Ayn Rand and her self-confessed disciples such as Alan Greenspan.

It is easy to bash the poor, since they don’t control many radio stations, TV stations, newspapers, or universities.

I’ve known many poor, many working class, many middle class, and many in the upper (“rich”) classes, and I’ve seen the same level of virtue and vice in all the classes.

The rich don’t sin less. They just hide it better, at least from their fellow human beings on earth.

From the eyes of Heaven they can hide nothing.