Are the sub atomic particles in the eucharist christ?

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2014taylorj

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Since, it is a catholic dogma, that every particle in the eucharist is fully christ, does that mean that particles on the molecular and sub atomic level fully christ?
 
Yes, as long as the accidents remain in the recognizable form of bread (so not digested, dissolved, etc).
 
Catholics believe that Jesus is really present in the sacred elements in the form of bread and wine. Both bread and wine are complex substances and are a mixture of different molecules. Once you divide either down to molecular level, they are no longer the form of bread or wine and the real presence no longer extends.

The molecules of any substance are constantly interacting with its environment. Tiny quantities of your body pass into the atmosphere, but they are no longer you. Although we take great pains to avoid losing crumbs from the host or droplets from the chalice, tiny quantities are interacting with the atmosphere at all times and the real presence does not extend to lost molecules.

Having said that, we have a priest who always uses half of what he’s given no matter how much or how little wine we put out before Mass. We’ve always said that if we ever wanted to split the atom, we could just put out one atom of wine.
 
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The smallest particle of bread, it has to still be bread is Jesus body, blood, soul and divinity. A single molecule is not bread.
 
A human and a piece of bread are made up of the same subatomic particles, so it basically doesn’t matter once you get down to that scale. Even the atoms are going to be mostly the same elements (primarily carbon, some oxygen and hydrogen and nitrogen, a little bit of other stuff). It’s only at the molecular level and higher that you can tell the difference between two carbon-based organisms (or substances made from dead organisms, in the case of bread). And of course, since all the empirical properties of the Host remain those of bread, you’re not going to find anything different between a consecrated and an unconsecrated Host no matter how sensitive your instruments.

The Church teaching is that the presence of Christ remains as long as the appearance of bread (or wine) remains — and in that case, they mean “to ordinary human senses.” So a particle small enough to be indistinguishable as bread, or digested enough to no longer count as bread, is also no longer Christ.
 
PatK63 said:
The smallest particle of bread, it has to still be bread is Jesus body, blood, soul and divinity. A single molecule is not bread.
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Well, I can see this discussion quickly spiraling down (wink, wink), but I’ll make one last comment. Let’s say the eucharist is a house. So, in this example, the substance of the house is Jesus. But what are the accidents of a house? Wood, nails, wires, pipes. So the house is actually Jesus, but the wood, nails, wires, pipes that make up the house (that make it in the form of a house) are not Jesus? In my view, the substance of the nails in the house are indeed Jesus, while that same nail, removed from the house, is no longer the substance of Jesus.
 
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It is different. Bread is ground wheat plus water and maybe a bit of salt, not positive about this salt but no yeast. Slightly toasted. The wheat is not Jesus or the water only the bread is Jesus. Because He said “ this is my body”.
 
I see what you are going for there, I think. It’s true that the Host, despite retaining all its accidents, lacks “breadness” after the consecration. So I suppose you could say that an individual starch molecule or carbon atom in that Host doesn’t have “breadness” either … but really, did it ever? And if it never had “breadness” to lose, it doesn’t gain “Jesusness” either.

Substance is the underlying reality of a thing, but it applies on a very human level. Under normal circumstances, we recognize a thing’s substance by its accidents, and a change in substance by a change in accidents. The Eucharist is unique in that, purely because of trust in Christ’s words, we believe that a thing that still has all the properties of bread is no longer properly bread underneath, but Jesus Christ — and yet, though we truly receive Him, we don’t chew Him up or digest Him.

A carbon atom presumably has “carbon-ness,” but I don’t think it inherits “breadness” from being part of a piece of bread; it is too small a constituent of the bread, and has two few of bread’s properties, for that. Therefore it also doesn’t partake in “Jesusness” after consecration. It’s still just carbon, carboning along, that happens to be part of something that changes on a level that doesn’t really involve atoms and such.
 
“The Eucharistic presence of Christ begins at the moment of the consecration and endures as long as the Eucharistic species subsist.”

Do you recognize particles on the molecular and sub atomic level as the Eucharistic species (ie as bread or wine)? Or do you recognize them only as constituent parts of those admixtures?
 
I think this is why the Orthodox believe that we in the West tend to over-think the Real Presence. 🙂
 
Is this discussion revolved around molecular that have broken away from the host, or molecular particles that are part of the host. What I really want to know is, are sub atomic particles which are part of the host still considered the body and blood of christ? Or has this point not been defined by the church?
 
snarflemike said:
So, in this example, the substance of the house is Jesus. But what are the accidents of a house? Wood, nails, wires, pipes.
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No, that is not what the terms “substance” and “accidents” mean in Aristotelian philosophy. A wire has the substance of a wire but its own accidents, and so on.
 
I truly think questions like this are from the devil. The overthinking of a miraculous event likely leads the one asking or passive participants to disbelief.
 
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2014taylorj said:
Is this discussion revolved around molecular that have broken away from the host, or molecular particles that are part of the host. What I really want to know is, are sub atomic particles which are part of the host still considered the body and blood of christ? Or has this point not been defined by the church?
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That which has been consecrated and which we perceive to be bread is the body and blood (soul and divinity) of Christ.

If you look closely enough at the host to see an individual molecular constituent particle of the host (say for example a protein molecule of gluten) do you perceive that molecule to be bread? Or to be (in this case) gluten?
 
So in this case the aristotelian principle of “the whole is greater than the sum of the parts” is applied?
 
This has been a very eye-opening thread for me. It has reminded me how little we can understand of the mind of God. I don’t say he is unknowable, but there is a line beyond which we cannot go in this life, lest we mistake Thomas’ straw for actual understanding.
 
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