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Church_Militant
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Has anyone looked at This discussion?
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Catholic_Dude
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sandusky-
What Calvinism does is invent two types of creation: one type God creates them wicked, the other type God creates them good even though the commit the same sins. You will see in the general context of this passage that v4 is way out of context on your part. If anything this passage is talking about free wil and man’s own fault if he is sent to hell. The wicked make themself wicked, not created that way. In v12 it says its an abomination for a king to do evil, both the kings you mentioned did evil.
Also, I dont see how “Scripture holds me accountalble for what I CHOOSE”, you claim your choices are predetermined. Also “He has entrusted His word to me”, the Bible says no such thing.
When you say “you dont reject the ECF’s” what does that mean?
Paul got that idea of a Potter and clay from the OT, he didnt just make up a nice analogy. The same thing with Jacob and Esau and Pharaoh, etc mentioned in that same chapter, its all reflecting on OT events. In this Jer18 passage it is clear the option to “turn from evil” is given to the individuals. There is no predestination here at all, no hardening here.
God is not schizophrenic here, He doesnt say “I the Lord have created ye unable to repent! Lo! I command ye to repent and I will destroy ye if ye dont repent.”
Again, if Paul’s statements are “very clear” show me 3 passages from his works that are “difficult to understand”.
To me those passages are very clear.
Here is Proverbs 16:1 The plans of the mind belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD. 2 All the ways of a man are pure in his own eyes, but the LORD weighs the spirit. 3 Commit your work to the LORD, and your plans will be established. 4 The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble. 5 Every one who is arrogant is an abomination to the LORD; be assured, he will not go unpunished. 6 By loyalty and faithfulness iniquity is atoned for, and by the fear of the LORD a man avoids evil. 7 When a man’s ways please the LORD, he makes even his enemies to be at peace with him. 8 Better is a little with righteousness than great revenues with injustice. 9 A man’s mind plans his way, but the LORD directs his steps. 10 Inspired decisions are on the lips of a king; his mouth does not sin in judgment. 11 A just balance and scales are the LORD’s; all the weights in the bag are his work. 12 It is an abomination to kings to do evil, for the throne is established by righteousness.
What Calvinism does is invent two types of creation: one type God creates them wicked, the other type God creates them good even though the commit the same sins. You will see in the general context of this passage that v4 is way out of context on your part. If anything this passage is talking about free wil and man’s own fault if he is sent to hell. The wicked make themself wicked, not created that way. In v12 it says its an abomination for a king to do evil, both the kings you mentioned did evil.
I never said the individual was unable to interpret/understand Scripture. The quote from 2nd Peter says “many passages”, (not all passage) are difficult to understand, and thats the plain truth.
Also, I dont see how “Scripture holds me accountalble for what I CHOOSE”, you claim your choices are predetermined. Also “He has entrusted His word to me”, the Bible says no such thing.
When you say “you dont reject the ECF’s” what does that mean?
Here is Jer18 again:6 "O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter has done? says the LORD. Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. 7 If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, 8 and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will repent of the evil that I intended to do to it.
Paul got that idea of a Potter and clay from the OT, he didnt just make up a nice analogy. The same thing with Jacob and Esau and Pharaoh, etc mentioned in that same chapter, its all reflecting on OT events. In this Jer18 passage it is clear the option to “turn from evil” is given to the individuals. There is no predestination here at all, no hardening here.
God is not schizophrenic here, He doesnt say “I the Lord have created ye unable to repent! Lo! I command ye to repent and I will destroy ye if ye dont repent.”
Again, if Paul’s statements are “very clear” show me 3 passages from his works that are “difficult to understand”.
Then you dont believe in passages like Acts2:38 and 22:16?
To me those passages are very clear.
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dennisknapp
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The believer can walk away and God will still love him. Love never forces, it works with, never forces. We all know what forced “love” is called, don’t we…
Peace
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Matt16_18
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Do you believe that the Christian has NOT been set free from the bondage to sin? If you think that a Christian is still in bondage to sin, then you have absolutely no understanding of what Paul is teaching in Romans.
I don’t know why you continue to belabor the point that a Christian has been reborn into the life of God. Catholics understand this. The point I am making, and the point that you are avoiding, is that the Christian can LOSE the eternal life abiding within. Apostasy is a mortal sin that causes the loss of the abiding of Christ in the soul of the Christian. Having sex with whores causes a Christian to lose the abiding of Christ. Hatred causes a Christian to lose the abiding of Christ …
The Chrisitan does indeed have eternal life abiding within. But you seem to think that John speaks about eternal life as if it is a clause in a legal contract that the believer has with God, and John NEVER uses the legal contract as a metaphor.
What we see in John’s Gospel is Jesus speaking about his abiding in us and we in him. Jesus abiding in the soul is what John means when he says the Christian has eternal life. As long as the Christian has Jesus abiding in him, he has eternal life. But if the Christian commits mortal sin, he loses the abiding of Jesus in his soul, and he loses eternal life.
Paul speaks about the same thing when he tells the Corinthians that their bodies have been sanctified, and their bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit. (God abides in the temple – Paul is obviously making a typological argument) And just as the OT temple could be made desolate by abomination, so to can the temple of the body be made desolate by abomination. Paul severely rebukes the Corinthians that were committing the mortal sin of having sex with whores. The Holy Spirit cannot dwell in a temple that has been defiled – the Holy Spirit will leave such a temple desolate (desolate means uninhabited). Paul warns the Christians that God will destroy them if they destroy their temples.Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God? You are not your own; you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.
1Cor. 6:19-20
Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you? If any one destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him.
1Cor. 3:16-17A Christian that has sex with a whore is trying to join what is unclean with his sanctified body – the two become one through sex, but the Holy Spirit cannot be one with an unclean whore. Sex with a whore is a mortal sin - it is an abomination that makes desolate the temple, and God will destroy the Christian that brings the desolating abomination into his temple.
John also says that a Christian can leave his temple desolate though mortal sin. John says that the Christian that hates his brother abides in death, not love. God is love, so a Christian that abides in hate has no eternal life abiding in him. Scriptures is absolutely clear that a Christian can lose the abiding of God within his temple. Calvinism denies the truth, and that is why Calvinism is dangerous heresy.
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Matt16_18
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Again you belabor a truth obvious to Catholics – that a Christ gives life to the Christian. But you need to take off your OSAS blinders and read all of scriptures, not just the scripture passages that you think support the false doctrine of OSAS. Yes, the believer is given life by Jesus. But that life can also be lost by mortal sin.
I believe exactly what these passages from scripture say. Jesus gives life to the believer. But I am not an OSAS heretic that denies that Jesus also teaches that branches can be cut off from the vine and be burned.
You believe in the false doctrine of OSAS, so of course you say that. But scripture does not support your contention that only “false believers” can commit the sin of apostasy. For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God.
Heb 6:4-7This passage speaks about Christians that have become apostates, not “false believers”. Only Christians can be a “partakers of the Holy Spirit.”
OSAS is damnable heresy.
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Philthy
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On what basis are you making the claim that God has the power to save all? That is the starting point for your dilemma.
Sorry, but that is not an answer - and pretty uncharacteristic of you. Its a pretty simple question - especially for for a Sola Scriptura adherent. Where does Scripture affirm that God has the power to bring all people to salvation?
Actually, what I said was:
According to your theology “a member of the elect CAN’T NOT hear the gospel message at some point during their life - this has been willed by God.” And so there remains the question of why you personally feel the need to do so when it will be done, somehow, regardless of any voluntary action(preaching) you take.
But if each one of the elect took that attitude, no one would preach the Gospel, and so, no one would be saved.
Oh really? What happened to predestination? You seem to forget that according to your theology the elect CANT NOT eventually hear the Gospel. Whether you do it or not, it will happen - the initial question as to why you personally preach remains unanswered. And with good reason - it is unanswerable within the context of your theology(at least my understanding of it). Again, this does not rest well with me. It would appear that you decide, of your own free will, to preach in obedience to Gods will as you understand it. That, of course, doesnt fit the model of free will and predestination that you have proposed.
Phil
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migurl
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of course many posts go unanswered, but ths on in particular should be looked at since some people have been saying that Free will is not mentioned in the Bible and that is not true
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norwester
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I apologize. I shouldn’t have said 'er typed that. Please forgive me?
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migurl
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sure
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Matt16_18
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Catholics believe that it is by grace alone that we become regenerated, and that is why Catholics baptize infants.
I am surprised that as a “Calvinist” that you reject infant baptism. Presbyterians practice infant baptism, and they seem to think that they follow the teachings of John Calvin.
Are you a Campbellite?
Just what is your denominational affiliation?
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Matt16_18
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What question would you like answered?
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sandusky
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Catholic Dude:
Catholic Dude:
Catholic Dude:
Catholic Dude:
What does that mean? Simply put, evil king, evil subjects, many cursings from God; righteous king, righteous subjects, many blessings from God. That was the tragedy of O.T. Israel.
Look also at Pro 14:34:
Righteousness exalts a nation, But sin is a disgrace to any people.
That aside, I have said that kings do evil—even righteous kings.
Scripture says that God is absolutely sovereign, and that He has declared the end from the beginning. What about the things between the end and the beginning? Did He leave those to chance? Did He leave it to planetary alignment? Did He simply start it and walk away to return in the end and finish it? I am not being facetious here, CD. Those questions must be asked. If God is not ultimately in control of all things, how can we be assured that anything He has said will come to pass? We cannot, and neither can God.
Scripture says that God is Lord of His creation; Scripture also says, that man is responsible for his actions.
(cont)
CD, that is not true. Forget about Calvinism. What do the Scriptures say? In v 4, He says that He has created the wicked for His own Purpose. A clearer statement as to the purpose of the wicked could not be made.
Catholic Dude:
Yes, man goes to hell by his own choice.
Catholic Dude:
Everyone begins this life in wickedness; Scripture is crystal clear on that. Man is conceived in sin (Ps 51:5); and continues in sin (Rom 3:23); until he is saved (Eph 2:1-10). Where we differ in theology, is that I believe what the Scripture says: In the fall, Adam’s spirit died, and as a result, all men enter existence dead in sin, and dead to God. The Magisterium teaches that as a result of the fall, men are born spiritually wounded, not dead, but wounded—big difference.
Catholic Dude:
Your paraphrase is inaccurate. The verse says, “It is an abomination to kings (pl) to do evil,” it does not say that is an abomination for a king (sg) to do evil. Also, there is a huge difference in meaning between “to,” and “for.”
What does that mean? Simply put, evil king, evil subjects, many cursings from God; righteous king, righteous subjects, many blessings from God. That was the tragedy of O.T. Israel.
Look also at Pro 14:34:
Righteousness exalts a nation, But sin is a disgrace to any people.
That aside, I have said that kings do evil—even righteous kings.
Catholic Dude said:
Scripture says that God is absolutely sovereign, and that He has declared the end from the beginning. What about the things between the end and the beginning? Did He leave those to chance? Did He leave it to planetary alignment? Did He simply start it and walk away to return in the end and finish it? I am not being facetious here, CD. Those questions must be asked. If God is not ultimately in control of all things, how can we be assured that anything He has said will come to pass? We cannot, and neither can God.
Scripture says that God is Lord of His creation; Scripture also says, that man is responsible for his actions.
(cont)
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sandusky
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(cont from post #192)
Catholic Dude:
Catholic Dude:
Catholic Dude:
Jesus does the same thing as Paul, often. Read Mt 5:21-28. Jesus uses a truth already known, and He changes it. Jesus says, “You have heard that…., But I say.”
Jesus, and Paul, use already known truths to teach further truths. It is an excellent teaching method. In the case of Christ, it is also a clear statement of His deity.
Catholic Dude:
Catholic Dude:
Catholic Dude:
Catholic Dude:
1 Cor 2:16 says the believer has the mind of Christ. What is mind of Christ, CD? I say it’s the scripture; you say it’s the magisterium. Another difference.
Catholic Dude:
Within your faith, you are not absolutely free to interpret Scripture. If I am misrepresenting your faith in that, tell me, so that I may not misrepresent you in the future.
Catholic Dude:
Paul is doing much more than “reflecting” on O.T. events. He is using Scripture that the Jews would know, as a starting point to teach them something. Believe me, the Jews knew who was in control. The problem was, they too often forgot what they knew.
Jesus does the same thing as Paul, often. Read Mt 5:21-28. Jesus uses a truth already known, and He changes it. Jesus says, “You have heard that…., But I say.”
Jesus, and Paul, use already known truths to teach further truths. It is an excellent teaching method. In the case of Christ, it is also a clear statement of His deity.
Catholic Dude:
The statement in bold is Pelagian, CD.
Catholic Dude:
CD, you have said that I am taking things out of context. I think that you are using 2 Pet 3:16 out of context, that is why have not answered your question. Exegete the verse for me, and then I will give you three verses that are hard to understand.
Catholic Dude:
Exegete those verses for me as well.
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sandusky
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There are so many names anymore, who knows.
A strong evangelical church, with a heavy emphasis on worldwide missions, but also reformed in theology, with no infant baptism.
Scripture alone, a pastor who is well-respected (within his sphere, there are many who don’t like him at all), and well-known (internationally).
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dennisknapp
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John Piper?
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Fiat
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Dear Sandusky:
Even a cursory review of jurisprudence is enough to reveal that “an earnest,” “a seal,” “a downpayment,” and a “guarantee,” are never enough to assure completion of a contract. So, to answer your question, I guess both St. Paul and your buddy Matt16_18 are correct and you are wrong.
Fiat
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sandusky
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Thanks for the answer, Dennis.
What is the love of God in Christ Jesus? Is it an idea? Is it an emotion? Is it a feeling?
It is all of those, and it is action; but most importantly, it is perfect. Paul says in Rom 5:8, that God demonstrates His love for us….
God does not just feel love, He demonstrates His love. The Father’s love for the believer is demonstrated by the Father’s charge to the Son that He not lose any of those the Father gave Him; God’s love for the believer is demonstrated in that He gives him eternal life; God’s love for the believer is demonstrated in that the believer will not perish; God’s love for the believer is demonstrated in that God has declared that believer has passed from death to life; God’s love for the believer is demonstrated in that the believer does not come into judgment; God’s love, Peter says, is demonstrated in that God, by His power, keeps the believer through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time, and the believer can never be separated from that love.
The believer can walk away to commit sin, sometimes badly, at other times not too badly; he can seldom sin, often sin, but he can never not sin, at least, not in this life, and God knows that, and the believer cannot lose his salvation.
The believer’s love for God is sometimes fickle, at other times fallow, and many times unfaithful. But God is faithful, through whom the believer is called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ his Lord (1 Cor 1:9; 2 Cor 1:18-22).
You are right. The believer cannot be separated from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus by his sin; God will still love him.
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sandusky
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West Coast.
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sandusky
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We are talking about God here, not men. Men are unfaithful, but God is faithful.
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sandusky
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The Christian is free from the bondage of sin, yes. But being set free from the bondage of sin does not mean that the Christian will never sin. One of the goals of the Christian is to bring his flesh into submission to his spirit, but he will never be successful at this in this life. As long as he is in the flesh, which is where his sin resides, he will sin. When his flesh dies, his sin dies.
Freed from the bondage to sin, is not freed from sin. As you have said, and correct me if I am wrong, the Christian can choose to disobey God; that is sin.
Look back on this thread. I have not avoided that you believe that a Christian can lose eternal life; I have denied that.
Mortal sin is a Catholic notion. There is no mortal sin for those who are in Christ.
I will deal with that statement further down in this post.
On the assumption that you are referring to 1 John 3:18, in that epistle, John is getting back to the basics of Christianity. John is speaking in certainties, that are clear. John says that if a man hates his brother, he is not a Christian. A Christian does not hate his brother; therefore, if a man hates his brother, you can know that he is not a Christian.
Let’s go back up to v10: By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. That is the context of v18. Hate your brother, not a Christian; love your brother, are a Christian. You are concluding that John is speaking about someone who was a Christian, but fell into hate, and lost his salvation. John is saying that one who hates his brother is obviously a child of the devil.
We have covered this; Paul, who is also an apostle and a writer of Scripture does—the sealing of the H.S. who is the earnest, the down payment.
If it does not point to Christ, it ain’t typology to me; Paul’s argument is not typological, it is analogical.
Matt16:18:
Re-read the passage; you are adding to it; Paul rebukes them for their behavior, and from that rebuke you conclude that the H.S. has left the believer. The H.S. does not leave the believer. You are allegorizing the passage. Also, Paul says nothing about God destroying them; that is your addition.
(cont)
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