Are there any Calvinists on this forum?

[sandusky]

(cont from post #360)

With respect to Romans 11:22, “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off,” start in v12 and you will see that those Jews spoken of were unbelieving Jews, and those being spoken of as being presently “cut off” must be viewed in the same context. The main reason for that is because of the definition of a believer already given by Scripture. Those being reminded of the possibility of being cut off, have not fully committed to God’s requirements and terms of salvation. Could there be elect among those mentioned in v22? Absolutely, elect who have not yet made the commitment. Could there be unbelievers among those addressed in v22? Absolutely, tares are among the wheat. Could this admonishment be directed at the elect who have believed? Absolutely not, because the elect are, by definition, foreknown, predestined, called, justified, glorified, have eternal life, and will not perish, etc., etc. There are myriad of those small descriptors of the elect, but in the interest of brevity I have not tacked them on here, they would run many pages.

Veritas41:

Jesus Himself says in John 15:6, “If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.” Jesus here says it is possible for believers to not remain in Him and therefore be condemned. He isn’t talking about people who were never saved to begin with, as I usually here this verse explained by those who believe in eternal security. This was one passage I always puzzled over as a Calvinist because it is so clear regarding the possibility of being removed from Christ.

John 15:6
6 “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

In v6, the one who does not abide in Christ is thrown away. That one who does not abide cannot be a believer, because Jesus has promised that the one the Father draws, will come, and He will neither cast that one out, nor will He throw that one away (Jn 6:37).

Furthermore, how is he thrown away? He is thrown away as, or like a branch. That is a simile, that is contained within this similitude. IOW, the one thrown away is NOT a branch, or a believer, but he is AS, or LIKE in some translations, a branch, but he is definitely not a branch. He is “like” a branch among the true branches; he is a tare among the wheat. And it is possible for a tare, or one who is “like” a branch to abide with Christ, though not fully, and not finally, as is illustrated in Jn 15:6; it is possible for a tare, or one who is “like” a branch to be somewhat enlightened, and to have “tasted” of, though not eaten the heavenly blessings of the true branch.

Be that as it may, that one is not a branch, but “like” a branch.

(cont)

 

[sandusky]

(cont from post #361)

Veritas41:

And finally, Philippians 2:12, “work out your salvation with fear and trembling.” What is to “work out” if everything has already been accomplished pertaining to salvation (especially if faith is all that is necessary to be saved) and why the “fear and trembling” if every born-again believer has a guarantee of eternal life? That was another verse that puzzled me as a Calvinist.

With the idea of “work out your salvation with fear and trembling,” and why if everything is already accomplished, you have simply chosen to take a crudely, and woodenly literal interpretation. The believer has work to do, fruit to bear, and working out one’s salvation is not working for, but working out—working to completion, working to death, and that final rest.

And why, you ask with fear and trembling?

Look at these verses:

Job 28:28
28 “And to man He said, ‘Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; And to depart from evil is understanding.’ ”

Psalm 111:10
10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom; A good understanding have all those who do His commandments; His praise endures forever.

Proverbs 1:7
*7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; Fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Proverbs 9:10 (NASB95)
10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.*

Isaiah 66:1-2
1 Thus says the Lord, “Heaven is My throne and the earth is My footstool. Where then is a house you could build for Me? And where is a place that I may rest?
2 “For My hand made all these things, Thus all these things came into being,” declares the Lord. “But to this one I will look, To him who is humble and contrite of spirit, and who trembles at My word.

Also, God tells why the believer will never walk away from his salvation under the new covenant:

Jeremiah 32:40
40 “I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.

Living with a healthy fear of the Lord, not dread, but a healthy fear, is simply a wise way to live.

 

[dennisknapp]

(cont from post #361)

With the idea of “work out your salvation with fear and trembling,” and why if everything is already accomplished, you have simply chosen to take a crudely, and woodenly literal interpretation. The believer has work to do, fruit to bear, and working out one’s salvation is not working for, but working out—working to completion, working to death, and that final rest.

And why, you ask with fear and trembling?

Look at these verses:

Job 28:28
28 “And to man He said, ‘Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; And to depart from evil is understanding.’ ”

Psalm 111:10
10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom; A good understanding have all those who do His commandments; His praise endures forever.

Proverbs 1:7
7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; Fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Proverbs 9:10 (NASB95)
10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

Isaiah 66:1-2
*1 Thus says the Lord, “Heaven is My throne and the earth is My footstool. Where then is a house you could build for Me? And where is a place that I may rest? *
2 “For My hand made all these things, Thus all these things came into being,” declares the Lord. “But to this one I will look, To him who is humble and contrite of spirit, and who trembles at My word.

Also, God tells why the believer will never walk away from his salvation under the new covenant:

Jeremiah 32:40
40 “I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.

Living with a healthy fear of the Lord, not dread, but a healthy fear, is simply a wise way to live.

sandusky,

Could you be wrong? If you were wrong, would you want to know it?

Why do you choose to ignore these questions?

Peace

 

[Catholic_Dude]

sandusky:

John 15:6
6 “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

In v6, the one who does not abide in Christ is thrown away. That one who does not abide cannot be a believer, because Jesus has promised that the one the Father draws, will come, and He will neither cast that one out, nor will He throw that one away (Jn 6:37).

Furthermore, how is he thrown away? He is thrown away as, or like a branch. That is a simile, that is contained within this similitude. IOW, the one thrown away is NOT a branch, or a believer, but he is AS, or LIKE in some translations, a branch, but he is definitely not a branch. He is “like” a branch among the true branches; he is a tare among the wheat. And it is possible for a tare, or one who is “like” a branch to abide with Christ, though not fully, and not finally, as is illustrated in Jn 15:6; it is possible for a tare, or one who is “like” a branch to be somewhat enlightened, and to have “tasted” of, though not eaten the heavenly blessings of the true branch.

Be that as it may, that one is not a branch, but “like” a branch.

Here is what Jn15 says:
1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be my disciples. 9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you; abide in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love.
Now lets look at this. In v2 it IS POSSIBLE to be a branch in Jesus and NOT BELIEVE.

 

[sandusky]

Catholic Dude:

1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

I don’t what translation you are reading, but the translation in v2 that you render Every branch of mine… is completely wrong. Your English translation translates the Greek en emoi in the genitive case, ie., “of mine.” That is a bad translation, en emoi is in the dative case, and it should be translated as “in me,” not as “of mine.”

I wouldn’t trust that translation that you are reading.
Catholic Dude:

Now lets look at this. In v2 it IS POSSIBLE to be a branch in Jesus and NOT BELIEVE.

Yes that is what v2 says, but I was discussing v6, however, I said the same thing in my post that you are saying now:

I said:

Sandusky:

He is “like” a branch among the true branches; he is a tare among the wheat. And it is possible for a tare, or one who is “like” a branch to abide with Christ, though not fully, and not finally, as is illustrated in Jn 15:6; it is possible for a tare, or one who is “like” a branch to be somewhat enlightened, and to have “tasted” of, though not eaten the heavenly blessings of the true branch.

 

[sandusky]

dennisknapp:

sandusky,

Could you be wrong? If you were wrong, would you want to know it?

Why do you choose to ignore these questions?

Peace

Dennis, you continue asking me if I think I am wrong, and I continue to say no, I don’t.

I don’t think that is ignoring any questions.

The outspoken Charles Barkley wrote a book a few years, and I’ve always like the title.

His book is called I may be wrong, but I doubt it.

I don’t think that I am wrong. The more I study, the more convinced I am that I have a right understanding.

 

[Matt16_18]

Originally Posted by Sandusky

He is “like” a branch among the true branches; he is a tare among the wheat.

You are twisting scriptures into pretzels to maintain your false assumptions. In the parable of the vine and the vinedresser Jesus makes no distinction between “false branches” and “true branches”. Sheesh! This is just plain silly.

 

[Veritas41]

Actually, we can’t simply “put aside” our definition of the elect. The Catholic definition of the elect doesn’t contradict Scripture, because nowhere in Scripture does it say all believers are the elect.

If the elect are those who persevere in grace, then none of the passages you cited contradict Catholic teaching. But if the elect are, as you claim, all believers, then you have a problem reconciling the passages, such as John 15, where Jesus clearly makes perseverance a condition for ultimate salvation --and He states perseverance isn’t guaranteed for all believers, which indicates being a believer isn’t synonymous with being one of the elect.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

sandusky-

I don’t what translation you are reading, but the translation in v2 that you render Every branch of mine… is completely wrong. Your English translation translates the Greek en emoi in the genitive case, ie., “of mine.” That is a bad translation, en emoi is in the dative case, and it should be translated as “in me,” not as “of mine.”

I dont know what to say, what does the version your using say?
(DR)2 Every branch in me, that beareth not fruit,
(RSV)2 Every branch of mine that bears no fruit,
(KJV)2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away:
(NIV)2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit,
(NAB)He takes away every branch in me that does not bear fruit,
It looks like those branches are connected.

Yes that is what v2 says, but I was discussing v6, however, I said the same thing in my post that you are saying now:

Verse 2 comes before verse 6 and they are both on the same topic/thought that Jesus is talking about.

Also Im interested in what you have to say about v12 in post 356.

 

[dennisknapp]

sandusky:

Dennis, you continue asking me if I think I am wrong, and I continue to say no, I don’t.

I don’t think that is ignoring any questions.

The outspoken Charles Barkley wrote a book a few years, and I’ve always like the title.

His book is called I may be wrong, but I doubt it.

I don’t think that I am wrong. The more I study, the more convinced I am that I have a right understanding.

I never asked *if *you think you are wrong, I asked if you could be wrong (huge distinction). And if you were wrong, would you want to know it.

Peace

 

[sandusky]

Veritas41:

Actually, we can’t simply “put aside” our definition of the elect. The Catholic definition of the elect doesn’t contradict Scripture, because nowhere in Scripture does it say all believers are the elect.

That is amusing, and it is nothing but the JW argument against the trinity. Scripture clearly teaches that all true believers are the elect. All others, who say are believers, are hypocrites, or false believers. You say you were a Calvinist. If you were, then you should know that the Calvinist teach what the Scriptures teach: the spiritual deadness of man necessitates the electing grace of God. Without it, no one would be saved.

Tell me, Veritas41, why is it that God elects and predestines to salvation those whom He has foreknown?

Those whom you call believers, those you say can lose their salvation, and not persevere, are not believers, but tares among the wheat. They are those that James speaks of in the second chapter of his epistle, those with a “said faith;” James says, basically, that one’s faith qualifies him to be a demon. Said faith is not true faith. If an apparent believer, loses his salvation, it is because he is an apparent believer. I laid out a definition of a believer for you in my last post, obviously you dismiss that as wrong.

In the sermon on the mount in Matthew’s Gospel, chapter 7, Jesus talks of the broad and narrow gate. Both gates, and ways, are religious people, but only one speaks of people with a true, saving faith. That way is narrow. The way the unbeliever takes is wide. It is religious, and it is wide. That one goes to church, performs all of the external requirements of his church, does good deeds, etc. We know that, because in v22 that one declares to have prophesied in the Lord’s name, and cast out demons, and performed many miracles; Jesus’ response to that one is go away, “I never knew you.” That is because that one is not a believer; he is not among the elect, because in Jn 10:27, Jesus says that He “knows,” those the Father has given Him, the elect. Surely you don’t believe that Jesus is contradicting Himself, or do you?

The elect, Paul says, were chosen in Christ, by the Father. The elect, therefore, have always been “in Christ,” and will remain, or abide in Christ, always. The elect are in the possession of the Father, until He gives them to the Son, as evidenced by Jn17:6. That prayer of Jesus in Jn 17 is about the elect, those given Him by the Father out of the world. They are the same ones that the Father draws to Him, and charges Him with keeping all, losing none, and raising them up on the last day, as stated in Jn 6; and they are the ones who hear Jesus voice, and are known by Him as stated in Jn 10.

How much more evidence do you need?

Veritas41:

If the elect are those who persevere in grace, then none of the passages you cited contradict Catholic teaching.

Actually, everything that those passages, and other passages dealing with election/predestination, security of the believer, and believing knowing that he is saved is condemned by Catholic teaching.

*Council of Trent on Justification:
CANON XVII.-If any one saith, that the grace of Justification is only attained to by those who are predestined unto life; but that all others who are called, are called indeed, but receive not grace, as being, by the divine power, predestined unto evil; let him be anathema.

CANON XV.-If any one saith, that a man, who is born again and justified, is bound of faith to believe that he is assuredly in the number of the predestinate; let him be anathema.*

…if the elect are, as you claim, all believers, then you have a problem reconciling the passages, such as John 15, where Jesus clearly makes perseverance a condition for ultimate salvation --and He states perseverance isn’t guaranteed for all believers, which indicates being a believer isn’t synonymous with being one of the elect.

I have shown you that the only true believer is the elect believer. All other apparent believers are false tares with a said faith that qualifies them to be demons.

The only condition of salvation is belief, which is also a gift from God, as are perseverance and endurance.

 

[Matt16_18]

sandusky:

The only condition of salvation is belief …

Faith is not greater than charity, and belief without works of love is something that even demons have. Dead faith can save no one… faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love

1Cor. 13:13A Chrisitan can easily believe and yet bear not the fruit of supernatural charity. Jesus’ parable of the vine and the branches does not support the Protestant “faith alone” heresy that the “only condition of salvation is belief.” Jesus teaches in the vine and the branches parable that the branches that are cut off from the vine by the vinedresser are the Christians that bear no fruit… if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing
1Cor. 13:2

"Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Matt. 7:21

"Why do you call me `Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?
Luke 6:46

A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you …
John 13:34

He who does not love abides in death. Any one who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
1John 3:14-15

a man is justified by works and not by faith alone
James 2:24

 

[sandusky]

Matt16_18:

Faith is not greater than charity, and belief without works of love is something that even demons have. Dead faith can save no one.

… faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love

Jesus’ parable of the vine and the branches does not support the Protestant “faith alone” heresy that the “only condition of salvation is belief.”

What does Paul tell the Philippian jailer he must do in order to be saved? Does he tell him that he must have love? Does he tell him that he must have hope? Does he tell him that he must have charity? Does he tell him that he must have works in order to be saved?

No; he tells him that he must have faith; he must believe in Christ.

In John 3:16, what does John say is the condition of eternal life? Does he say the one who has love has eternal life? Does he say the one who has hope has eternal life? Does he say the one who has charity has eternal life? Does he say the one who has works has eternal life?

No; he says that the one who has faith, the one who believes in Christ has eternal life.

What does Paul say in Eph 2:8? Does he say one is saved by grace through love? Does he say one is saved by grace through hope? Does he say one is saved by grace through charity? Does he say one is saved by grace through works?

No; he says that one is saved through faith in Christ.

Every right-thinking Calvinist will agree with each verse you cited in your post. The only one who does not, is the one that you have made up in your mind, and he is the one you continue to present on this forum.

One can have all of the love, all of the hope, all of the charity, and all of the works that can be attained, but without first having faith, love, hope, charity, and works have no value, and he will not be saved.

 

[Pax]

Sandusky,

You have done a good job in presenting the Calvinist position, but you have not demonstrated anything concerning the “true believer” vs. the “apparent believer.” I have had some lenghty discussions with Calvinists on this particular point and at no time have they been able to show this distinction in scripture. Your example of the wheat and the tares may be your best shot in that direction, but it isn’t referencing a “true” believer verses a “pseudo-believer.” Scripture simply refers to belief and unbelief. Scripture does not make the kind of distinction you are attempting to establish.

The belief in faith alone forces you to try to make the distinction between a true believer and a psuedo-believer even though scripture never does so.

You have stated that belief is all that is required for salvation. I have a question for you. Do you honestly believe that it is not necessary to love God in order to be saved?

 

[Pax]

sandusky:

What does Paul tell the Philippian jailer he must do in order to be saved? Does he tell him that he must have love? Does he tell him that he must have hope? Does he tell him that he must have charity? Does he tell him that he must have works in order to be saved?

No; he tells him that he must have faith; he must believe in Christ.
…

Please explain why Paul says this in Romans 8:24

– King James
Romans 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

 

[Pax]

Sandusky,

I see the problem this way. Protestants are wrong in arguing for faith alone because they argue narrowly from scripture rather than embracing all of it. The following should illustrate why I say this. Using a narrow set of scriptures I will present several different arguments on how we are saved.

HOW WE ARE SAVED
faith? grace ? baptism? hope? works? obedience? Love? sanctification?]

BY FAITH
1 Cor 1:21
For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, God decided, through the foolishness of our proclamation, to save those who believe.

Rom 3:28
28 For we hold that a person is justified by faith apart from works prescribed by the law.

Rom 10:10
For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved.

BY GRACE
Eph 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God–not the result of works, so that no one may boast.

Rom 3:24
they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus

Eph 2:4-6
the great love with which he loved us even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-by grace you have been saved-and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ

BY WORKS–
Matt 16:24-27
Then Jesus told his disciples, "If any want to become my followers, let them deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. For those who want to save their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will find it. For what will it profit them if they gain the whole world but forfeit their life? Or what will they give in return for their life? "For the Son of Man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay everyone for what has been done.

1 Tim 4:16
Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; continue in these things, for in doing this you will save both yourself and your hearers.

James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

James 1:21-22
Therefore rid yourselves of all sordidness and rank growth of wickedness, and welcome with meekness the implanted word that has the power to save. But be doers of the word, and not merely hearers who deceive themselves.

James 5:20
you should know that whoever brings back a sinner from wandering will save the sinner’s soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

BY BAPTISM
Acts: 2:40-41
And he testified with many other arguments and exhorted them, saying, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” So those who welcomed his message were baptized, and that day about three thousand persons were added.

Rom 6:4
Therefore we have been buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

1 Peter 3:21
And baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you-not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ

John 3:5
Jesus answered, "Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.

BY HOPE
Rom 8:24
For we are saved by hope:

Eph :11-12
In Christ we have also obtained an inheritance, having been destined according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to his counsel and will, so that we, who were the first to set our hope on Christ, might live for the praise of his glory.

Col 1:5-6
You have heard of this hope before in the word of the truth, the gospel that has come to you. Just as it is bearing fruit and growing in the whole world, so it has been bearing fruit among yourselves from the day you heard it and truly comprehended the grace of God.

Titus 3:6-7
This Spirit he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Heb 3:6
Christ, however, was faithful over God’s house as a son, and we are his house if we hold firm the confidence and the pride that belong to hope.

Heb 6:11 And we want each one of you to show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope to the very end,

continued on next post

 

[Pax]

continued from prior post

BY OBEDIENCE
Deu 7:9-10
Know therefore that the LORD your God is God, the faithful God who maintains covenant loyalty with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations, and who repays in their own person those who reject him.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure God’s wrath.

Acts 5:32
And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey him."

Heb 5:9
and having been made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him,

Matt 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.

1 Peter 1: 2
to the exiles…who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood:

Rev 12:17
Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her children, those who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus.

BY LOVE
1 Cor 8:3
…but anyone who loves God is known by him.

1 Cor 16:22
Let anyone be accursed who has no love for the Lord. Our Lord, come!

Jam 1:12-15
Blessed is anyone who endures temptation. Such a one has stood the test and will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.

James 2:5
Has not God chosen the poor in the world to be rich in faith and to be heirs of the kingdom that he has promised to those who love him?

Luke 10:25-37
“Teacher,” he said, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” He said to him, “What is written in the law? What do you read there?” He answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” And he said to him, “You have given the right answer; do this, and you will live.”

John 14:15
"If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

John 15:10
If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love.

1Cor 2:9
But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the human heart conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him”

1Cor 13:1-2
If I speak in the tongues of mortals and of angels, but do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not
have love, I am nothing. If I give away all my possessions, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

1Cor 13:13
And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love.
LOVE IS OBEDIENCE
1Jn 5:3
For the love of God is this, that we obey his commandments.

2 Jn 1:6
And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment just as you have heard it from the beginning-you must walk in it.
**
BY ENDURANCE**
Luke 21:19
By your endurance you will gain your souls.

Heb 10:36
For you need endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.

Matt 24 :12-13
And because of the increase of lawlessness, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

BY SANCTIFICATION
Heb 13:12
Therefore Jesus also suffered outside the city gate in order to sanctify the people by his own blood.

Acts 20:32
And now I commend you to God and to the message of his grace, a message that is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all who are sanctified.

1Cor 1:2
To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, together with all those who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:

Rom 6:22
But now that you have been freed from sin and enslaved to God, the advantage you get is sanctification. The end is eternal life.

Heb 2:11
For the one who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one Father. For this reason Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters,

HEB 10:9
And it is by God’s will that we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

1Peter 1:2
who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood:

2 Thess 2:13
But we must always give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

 

[Pax]

What I hoped to demonstrate by this list of arguments is that each of them speaks to salvation, but none of them does so in a complete fashion. Each argument is exclusive and fails to include the elements of all the others. The argument for sola fide is no exception.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

sandusky-

What does Paul tell the Philippian jailer he must do in order to be saved? Does he tell him that he must have love? Does he tell him that he must have hope? Does he tell him that he must have charity? Does he tell him that he must have works in order to be saved?

No; he tells him that he must have faith; he must believe in Christ.

This is a passage I hear a lot from people, but it misses some important information. Here is that passage from Acts16:
27 When the jailer woke and saw that the prison doors were open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped. 28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, “Do not harm yourself, for we are all here.” 29 And he called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas, 30 and brought them out and said, “Men, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
Seems clear enough…the problem is people look at that passasge and misunderstand the term “faith” to be a quick prayer and done, saved… keep reading in the passage:
32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all that were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their wounds, and he was baptized at once, with all his family. 34 Then he brought them up into his house, and set food before them; and he rejoiced with all his household that he had believed in God.
The Apostle and Silas explained the Gospel to a certain degree, and notice the time (v25) it was past MIDNIGHT and yet in v33 they were taken out at that same hour and Baptized. Then the most important detail is v34b it says he believed AFTER getting Baptized (ie accepting the Gospel and becoming Christian).
Also here is a good thread to explain the idea of Faith Alone.

In John 3:16, what does John say is the condition of eternal life? Does he say the one who has love has eternal life? Does he say the one who has hope has eternal life? Does he say the one who has charity has eternal life? Does he say the one who has works has eternal life?

No; he says that the one who has faith, the one who believes in Christ has eternal life.

Yes but 10 verses (v5) earlier Jesus says Baptism is part of that faith.

What does Paul say in Eph 2:8? Does he say one is saved by grace through love? Does he say one is saved by grace through hope? Does he say one is saved by grace through charity? Does he say one is saved by grace through works?

No; he says that one is saved through faith in Christ.

In James2:22 it explains this “faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works”

One can have all of the love, all of the hope, all of the charity, and all of the works that can be attained, but without first having faith, love, hope, charity, and works have no value, and he will not be saved.

We never said otherwise.

 

[Veritas41]

If Scripture clearly teaches that all believers are the elect, then please demonstrate that by providing verses that say so.

Yes, as a Calvinist and as a Catholic I believe grace is absolutely necessary for someone to repent, have faith and be justified. But this doesn’t mean all who do so are the elect. Here are some Scriptures to back that up:
1 Samuel 10:9-10,
1 Samuel 18:12,

Ezekiel 18:24,
Ezekiel 33:12
Galatians 4:8-9,
Colossians 1:21-23,
Hebrews 6:4-5, 9, 11,
Hebrews 10:26, 29, 36 ,
Revelation 2:4-5,
Galatians 5:1,4,
Philippians 3:12-14,
1 Timothy 4:1, 16,
2 Peter 1:10-11,
2 Peter 3:20,

You say that “unbelievers” are those who practice a phony, external religion, but why would an unbeliever attend church? How would an unbeliever be able to perform miracles and prophesy in the Lord’s name? The very definition of an unbeliever is someone who doesn’t believe! And how has what I have said contradicted that Jesus knows who the elect are? I’ve simply stated that there are those believers who do not persevere in grace to be saved when they die. Jesus would certainly know who they are! Just like Jesus chose Judas to be one of His disciples, yet He fully knew ahead of time that Judas would turn away from Him and betray Him.

The elect, Paul says, were chosen in Christ, by the Father. The elect, therefore, have always been “in Christ,” and will remain, or abide in Christ, always.

How does this contradict what I have said? I said the elect are those who will persevere to the end – they will remain in Christ. If you take this to mean that every believe is the elect, then I wonder how you reconcile that with John 15, where Jesus speaks of those who are joined to Him, the true Vine, are cut off and thrown away and burned? He is speaking of “true believers” because they had previously been joined to Him, which could not be said of someone who had never been saved, and Jesus says abiding in Him is conditional upon loving Him and keeping His commandments. Nowhere in John 15 does He say we remain in Him simply by faith.

Canon XVII you quoted simply says that the elect aren’t the only ones who receive the grace of justification (which is what I’ve been saying) and that God doesn’t predestine people to reprobation and hell. He only predestines to grace and glory, and nothing in the passages you have cited contradicts that.
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Canon XV has no problem with Scripture, either. As I’ve amply demonstrated from the Scripture passages above, even the apostles and those whom they knew to be “true believers,” didn’t take for granted that they or other “true believers” would automatically make it to heaven. As a Christian we can certainly can have hope that we will be saved, based on God’s promise to be faithful to us, but it is conditioned upon our remaining faithful to Him. This is only possible by grace – we simply have to say “yes” to the grace He gives by being obedient to Him. It’s like a marriage – we don’t have an absolute guarantee that our marriage won’t end in divorce, but we can have assurance, even if it’s not *absolute *assurance, that if we each take our marriage relationship seriously and strive to be the kind of spouse we’re supposed to be, we will remain married til death do us part. We exist in a relationsship with God not unlike marriage – God does His part, and it’s up to us to do our part to make the marriage last, but since we’re the fallen party, we can cause the marriage to end before death through our own sin and selfishness.

Is faith really all that’s necessary? Let’s see what Scripture says…

Matthew 19:16-17,
John 15:9-10,
1 Corinthians 13, 1-2,
John 14:21,
Galatians 5:6,
James 2:22-24,
1 John3:18,

The truth that we are not justified by our faith alone is seen in passages speaking of our being judged based on what we do, not just on our faith:

Matthew 25:31-46 Parable of the sheep and the goats

Revelation 22:12, “Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.”