Are there any Catholics here who do not believe in what happened at Fatima?

[tonyrey]

t is not really a paradox because secular achievements are not necessarily linked to moral and spiritual progress. Technological feats have enabled man to cause more bloodshed far more efficiently and on a much greater scale, e.g. Hiroshima and Auschwitz.

Who are we? Those who sincerely believe in the UDHR do not resort to bloodshed unless they are compelled to…

Remind me of how many unborn children are eliminated every year? t is a paradox. What the Cardinal is saying is that we often think our generation is “civilized” and “moral”, but we aren’t really different from those who have gone before us. Remind me of how many unborn children are eliminated every year?

The increase in abortions corresponds to the increase in secularism. Civilisation is only a veneer if it lacks a rational basis for the value of life.

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

Who are we? Those who sincerely believe in the UDHR do not resort to bloodshed unless they are compelled to…
The increase in abortions corresponds to the increase in secularism. Civilisation is only a veneer if it lacks a rational basis for the value of life.

Oh, never mind lol. I understood what the Cardinal was saying. That’s the most important thing

 

[tonyrey]

Oh, never mind lol. I understood what the Cardinal was saying. That’s the most important thing

The real issue is what needs to be done about it - unless you’re a fatalist! The rejection of apparitions by Catholics at Fatima, Lourdes and elsewhere may well be due to living in a secular society. There is little to remind us of the inadequacy of materialism - except when we stop to think about its pernicious effects - and many people don’t have the time, energy or inclination.

 

[FurtherSuntime]

Man always has war, but what happened during World War 2 was nothing less than pure savagery. When I was at the World Youth Day, we had a Cardinal who was speaking about this. He said along the lines that there seemed to be a cultural paradox in the 20th century - many technological, academic and economic feats were achieved, but paradoxically, it was the bloodiest century in Man’s recorded history. So it’s unfair to consider World War 2 as “just another war”. It was nothing less than pure blood spilling.

If we could radar the mindset of man and his warring we would prob find the same basic fear with its kill.or be killed theme I think its the same guy, no change…Just different tools and methods.

This was my idea in “man is always at war” The Fatima event was an occasion in setting toward the guy man and his war, who really is no different re the mindset in war

I think this guy needs to see for himself how in-decent he truly is before he can realize he is not
really that decent at all. This century could be seen as the highest potential to decent progress ever, as now and only now man knows the villain is clearly not the odd ball neighbor or peculiar situation but himself.

War is torture in every way The intentional torture and murder is un-acceptable.My opinion for now shows man to be finally forced through this century’s advance to recognize what he is without God. It truly is repugnant.( Holocaust etc etc) The potentiality in self without God-Love strikes the constitution in individual self understanding. We are in dismay over our reality in existence. A reality which can change with our observance and dedicated attention.

The event I think is an accumulated rejection of God-Love which man “needs to see first hand”
in order to change. So maybe we should feel at least as though we are part of the future inevitable good… Advance has allowed man to expose himself more thoroughly. I think this is a good. The word secular can be confusing because its used to suggest two different idea’s . Modernism-of this century… or worldly-not sacred. Modernism may not be sacred but its trapped in progress to reason toward reason-decency

 

[tonyrey]

The real issue is what needs to be done about it - unless you’re a fatalist! The rejection of apparitions by Catholics at Fatima, Lourdes and elsewhere may well be due to living in a secular society. There is little to remind us of the inadequacy of materialism - except when we stop to think about its pernicious effects - and many people don’t have the time, energy or inclination.

Correction:

The rejection by Catholics **of **apparitions at Fatima, Lourdes and elsewhere may well be due to living in a secular society!

 

[Road2Damascus]

You could argue that though Fatima was approved rather quickly, around 1932 if I remember correctly, after the initial occurrence in 1917, that perhaps the severity of World War II could have been reduced if the Fatima prophecy had been followed more faithfully from the beginning.

I think too, if you look at the Blue Army or wafusa.org/ their more recent title as World Apostolate of Fatima, you see they had a name like Blue Army basically in what was the aftermath of World War II and of course, in America in the '50s and early '60s, Americans were rightfully cautious about communism and the Fatima message fit in well with the anti-communistic fervor of those decades.

Of course, Fascism was a danger as well in the '20s and '30s, '40s obviously and Franco ruled in Spain, I’m not sure what happened in Portugal, I do know poor Jacinta and Francisco as we all know were taken by a flu epidemic, influenza, not sure if that was the Spanish flu but that struck big time around 1918, 1919.

So, rather than Catechism, I see Fatima as a lot about prophecy. That’s all, I’ve been reflecting on this thread since about Sunday night and have been reading all of the posts.

 

[McatholicN]

Are we as Catholics REQUIRED to believe in Fatima and other apparitions?

 

[Road2Damascus]

The World Apostolate of Fatima website I could not get working but this page is working: worldfatima.com/ Same people and yes, a Fatima organization in good graces with the Church, to make that clear. Around for many decades. They have the Fatima vigils, First Saturdays.

 

[Road2Damascus]

Are we as Catholics REQUIRED to believe in Fatima and other apparitions?

No.

You might read the rest of this thread however because it discusses your question in some detail.

 

[FurtherSuntime]

You could argue that though Fatima was approved rather quickly, around 1932 if I remember correctly, after the initial occurrence in 1917, that perhaps the severity of World War II could have been reduced if the Fatima prophecy had been followed more faithfully from the beginning.

I think too, if you look at the Blue Army or wafusa.org/ their more recent title as World Apostolate of Fatima, you see they had a name like Blue Army basically in what was the aftermath of World War II and of course, in America in the '50s and early '60s, Americans were rightfully cautious about communism and the Fatima message fit in well with the anti-communistic fervor of those decades.

Of course, Fascism was a danger as well in the '20s and '30s, '40s obviously and Franco ruled in Spain, I’m not sure what happened in Portugal, I do know poor Jacinta and Francisco as we all know were taken by a flu epidemic, influenza, not sure if that was the Spanish flu but that struck big time around 1918, 1919.

So, rather than Catechism, I see Fatima as a lot about prophecy. That’s all, I’ve been reflecting on this thread since about Sunday night and have been reading all of the posts.

The third and fourth apparition, right in the heart of the six visit event:

" Our Lady explained"…" You have seen Hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them God wants to establish throughout the world the devotion to my Immaculate Heart If people do what I will tell you, many souls will be saved and there will be peace. The war is going to end."

1. We learn above that the souls of poor sinners in Hell, can be saved through devotion to the Immaculate Heart. It is what God wants.

Also from quote " many souls will be saved and there will be peace" All within the same context, in event.

Therefore, one would understand that Hell, is not an eternal location . . Obviously Our Lady was referring to a Hell where poor sinners go by means of sinning in earthly existence…from quote " many souls will be saved and there will be peace" The reference when read is same as the Bible quote re cutting off the ear to save oneself from the hellish life on earth.
( above is no where close to Catechism Teachings)

Forth Apparition

The text explains prior to the following, our Lady was teaching the children to pray rather for the health of souls than of bodies.

“Pray! Pray a great deal and make sacrifice’s for sinners, for many souls go to hell for not having someone to pray and make sacrifices for them.”

1. In the second entry, entitled Fourth Apparition, The children are asked by Our Lady to pray and make sacrifice’s for many souls who have no one to pray for them and thus go to hell. Here we learn the profound reality in the power of prayer for others . The importance and significance in the unification of man. We effect each others fate in devotion, charity and of course prayer. We are all inter-connected together through Divine Will , toward our sanctification.

The unity of man, certainly seen to be instrumental in the consequence of the souls fate with respects to hell. The message unfolds mutual responsibility to be most sure. Love of thy neighbor in full blossom, graciously asked by The Mother of God.

The exact term seen in the third apparition"many souls" is repeated by Our Lady in the fourth apparition above. I believe it is very obvious under this circumstance of exact term, "many souls"to introduce the same evidence in the absence of eternal damnation. In fact , we learn that God wants to save the souls in hell. The ground vision in my opinion cannot be the eternal torture chamber the church speaks of as demons are apparently seen invading the “many souls” If they are damned eternally why would the vision show them in a state of onslaught in corruption of demons? Also…it is hard to believe that if this cosmic , eternal torture chamber existed…the toddlers would be exposed to the thing by The Blessed Virgin .

The words spoken are not that many in the six visits. Quite a bit is spoken toward individuals, sickness and other.

War is the absence of unity. Praying for sinners so God can save the “many souls in.hell” is directly associated with man and his war. Eternal torturous hell belief is directly connected
with vigor , hatred in waring. No question about it. People can read what they want but theres

…no denying the above wording.

( I don’t think II’l be back, theres too much argumentative without proper research and logical reason in back up. You guys can believe what your able to understand but don’t forget…

…these are words spoken to toddlers for understanding…

The Catechism is simply not in line with these words from heaven. Not even close.

BTW…I noticed something peculiar within these six visits from heaven. Its very interesting &, not heard of as of yet .
maybe in a couple of months I will have the where with all to come back and speak to it.
Its science related and concerns time-relativity…so enjoyed parts of this forum and I think we are meant to be cheerful, which I’m having a little difficulty with here…cheers and so long for now

 

[tonyrey]

Its science related and concerns time-relativity…so enjoyed parts of this forum and I think we are meant to be cheerful, which I’m having a little difficulty with here…cheers and so long for now

That’s inevitable where there are differences of opinion but it is also a challenge - which
is the way it should be. Unanimity is uninteresting!

 

[Road2Damascus]

“Say the Rosary every day, to bring peace to the world and the end of the war.”

The war is going to end; but if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the pontificate of Pius XI. When you see a night illumined by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that he is about to punish the world for its crimes, by means of war, famine, and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father.

theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/words/wordfati.html

See, if one believes in Fatima, possibly you could say the second World War could have been stopped or limited in scope if more people had followed the teachings more closely. And here, I know the Holy See may not have wanted to stress the urgency of the message.

However, this also brings in the time line issue of when exactly, did we hear that Lucia related these words to the authorities?

 

[Road2Damascus]

I think it is something to deal with is when were the words Our Lady spoke made known to the public.

This is important and why I talk of a time line but I don’t say this to bring up questions about the matter.

theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/words/wordfati.html

These apparitions occurred in 1917: The Revolution in Russia occurred around 1917 as well, would there have been time to get this out to all of the Faithful? It would seem not.

“To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart, and the Communion of Reparation on the First Saturdays. If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred, the Holy Father will have much to suffer, various nations will be annihilated. In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me and she will be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world.”

So expanding on the original post, this time line needs to be examined. At the most, we could say, the 3 children or Lucia told this to the Clergy and investigators but how long afterward was this made known to the public?

After the fact of the Russian Revolution? Is it made known to the public after any of the other events as well??

 

[FurtherSuntime]

Understood and fair enough but lets face it, if Fatima is an absolute true visit from heaven
its all about everything, not simply world events of the time. Every single chosen word and phrase would be absolute truth. Man is still about and subject to same problems. I’m sure there remains a vastly meritorious value and strick responcibility to pure truth relative to the fact of man , unity and war initiatives. So I was remarking against a cover-up in a defined historical meaning re suggested "all about prophecy"in such an event. All about prophecy simply makes no sense.

Wars just don’t happen, either does communism. Thats the problem. How is man going to avoid this in the future. If this was a true visit from heaven the “form” in the direction would hold
recourse to man in meaning to avoid finding himself in this situation. In opionion this is the root of it all. Our root approach is causing occasions which unfold war communism ect

Its like a mother telling a kid if you cross the road now when the light is red, nothing good will come about. Does the parent NOT explain behaviour for good results in full understanding?
Its not just the car comming now…theres a lifetime of cars comming. Since the words used re hell conflict with catholic Teaching, the root approach in men must be corrected. Avoidance is
to reject the event in a meaning for humanity as a whole. Humanity as a whole would be a mature intelligent perspective

So these idea’s in history I think are hugely important that you mention in understanding the
remarkable event , but were still left with the hundreds or thousands of years in humaity in
subjectivity to war. How can heaven not know this and how could this not be the cheif concern for man?

 

[Road2Damascus]

Must Catholics believe in Fatima? This 1989 article may be helpful. catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=1165&CFID=93960895&CFTOKEN=91023633

Excerpt:

So far as the particular circumstances that gave rise to the Fatima message are concerned the Church has warmly recommended acceptance of the apparitions, but only as a matter of human faith, so that a Catholic is not obliged to accept the initial accounts, whether of 1917, or the appearances of the angel in 1916 or subsequent revelations communicated to Lucy since 1917*. This may seem strange, but we cannot make obligations where the Church does not command us, and especially we must not impose on others the obligation of accepting private revelations. *

 

[FurtherSuntime]

Must Catholics believe in Fatima? This 1989 article may be helpful. catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=1165&CFID=93960895&CFTOKEN=91023633

Excerpt:

Sorry thats not going to fly in the year 2011, maybe 1242.

Building Church’s worldwide, taking and using billions of dollars off of hard working people
IS the pronounced truth & authenticity of Fatima… an absolute acceptance of the full Fatima story in full acceptance of growth financially and otherwise .

An institution pledges acceptance in merit of product when the check is cashed period. The cash register has been ringing in dollars for 95 years and RC gobbles it up in the name of

… Truth afforded directly at Fatima…

Belief as only a matter of faith is interesting. If a believer has faith in the truth spoken at Fatima
the RC Catechism remains tainted with falsehood.

All a Catholic needs to do is impose the exact situation on another belief system in the world.
A large incredible Islamic happening which cannot be denied conflicting with perhaps the Quran…?

Mans largest problem is not making mistakes but repeating them and not being able to say I goofed. I believe man has goofed on this for 2000 yrs. Now he’s been told .

Truth Prevails

 

[TrueLight]

Sorry thats not going to fly in the year 2011, maybe 1242.

Building Church’s worldwide, taking and using billions of dollars off of hard working people
IS the pronounced truth & authenticity of Fatima… an absolute acceptance of the full Fatima story in full acceptance of growth financially and otherwise .

An institution pledges acceptance in merit of product when the check is cashed period. The cash register has been ringing in dollars for 95 years and RC gobbles it up in the name of

… Truth afforded directly at Fatima…

Belief as only a matter of faith is interesting. If a believer has faith in the truth spoken at Fatima
the RC Catechism remains tainted with falsehood.

All a Catholic needs to do is impose the exact situation on another belief system in the world.
A large incredible Islamic happening which cannot be denied conflicting with perhaps the Quran…?

Mans largest problem is not making mistakes but repeating them and not being able to say I goofed. I believe man has goofed on this for 2000 yrs. Now he’s been told .

Truth Prevails

Are you sure you didn’t forget to amend your “religion” in your profile?

Anyway, Marian Apparitions is in Catholicism 102. Since I am taking Catholicism 101, I don’t need to think about them yet.

 

[Road2Damascus]

Are you sure you didn’t forget to amend your “religion” in your profile?

Anyway, Marian Apparitions is in Catholicism 102. Since I am taking Catholicism 101, I don’t need to think about them yet.

I have been to dozens, for a few years straight, I’d go to every Fatima First Saturday Vigil, I considered it an honor if I could carry the Pilgrim statue, you see 4 people carry it on a platform, I have read not only many books on Fatima but have gone on 1 pilgrimage and also read all of the additional material on Scapulars, etc.

So, it truly is not like we are novices here or all novices, I really don’t know where others are coming from but we do need to be careful with what we are saying, honestly.

But I only posted an excerpt. The truth here, TrueLight and others is that if we are indeed faithful to the teachings of the Holy Mother Church… in that instant, we don’t always need to know all about an apparition. Take what the first part of the paragraph I quoted says:

Again we put the question: must Catholics believe in Fatima? The answer is two-fold. So far as the heart of the Fatima message goes, meaning prayer, penance, reparation and the compassionate Immaculate Heart of Mary — the Church’s approval here is absolute. No Catholic is free to reject these key aspects of Christian belief and practise. The Church’s judgment here is infallible because these are matters that affect the very core of our Christian and Catholic life.

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=1165&CFID=93960895&CFTOKEN=91023633

So, see, if we go to Confession, Mass, Pray, Do Penance, these are things in the Messages of Fatima but we should actually already be doing this.

 

[FurtherSuntime]

I have been to dozens, for a few years straight, I’d go to every Fatima First Saturday Vigil, I considered it an honor if I could carry the Pilgrim statue, you see 4 people carry it on a platform, I have read not only many books on Fatima but have gone on 1 pilgrimage and also read all of the additional material on Scapulars, etc.

So, it truly is not like we are novices here or all novices, I really don’t know where others are coming from but we do need to be careful with what we are saying, honestly.

But I only posted an excerpt. The truth here, TrueLight and others is that if we are indeed faithful to the teachings of the Holy Mother Church… in that instant, we don’t always need to know all about an apparition. Take what the first part of the paragraph I quoted says:

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=1165&CFID=93960895&CFTOKEN=91023633

So, see, if we go to Confession, Mass, Pray, Do Penance, these are things in the Messages of Fatima but we should actually already be doing this.

Throughout history RC seems to conform along nicely with man matching error for error… We look back and make excuses for management in troubled times . Catherine of Sienna speaks to the ship in her period very well.

I feel the most honorable Pope is promoting unity the real message in Fatima very well. As the world becomes smaller due to communication a disdain for hell pledge of eternal torture will be seen more acutely for what it is by notice of justified vengeance in other belief systems initiative.

If God uses torture and violence for the guilty one, why can’t I be just like God says the disturbed nation against nation. Both send each other to hell in the name of God.

The conscience operates for truth. The Church operates for truth toward already placed assertion. That is not infallible judgment, its picking and choosing what is handy for self esteem without conscience. I feel picking and choosing whats handy is the job for a machine

If the manager at work tells you something on how things are, and later the owner of the company comes along and says differently…who are you going to question, the manager or the owner of the company?
The manager will never get away with contradicting the owner no matter how he tries to regulate and manipulate the workers . The workers know. who the real boss is and where the reward and grace’s are coming from. Mary is the Mother of God, in opinion this truth unfolds an ownership in Creation.

This is by far the worst period yet for the true & absolute peace message in Catholicism. Two world wars show the fruits of 2000yrs of trying to promote peace. While flourishing physically
RC has failed the cause in unity-peace for mankind.

The individual peace and devotion is an illusion if it does not extend outward. The extension outward for peace begins the unifying process. So we know the extension of peace is improperly rooted as 2000 yrs demonstrates absolute failure with two world wars representing
a “year end profit”

My largest confusion and therebye unfolding wonder is the divine patience, of God Almighty

 

[Areopagite]

I don’t believe in Fatima.

But I haven’t considered it seriously either. Honestly, I was sort of turned off to Fatima when wacko right-wing schismatics tried using it to condemn the last five or six Popes.