Are there any Catholics here who do not believe in what happened at Fatima?

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Pope Pius XII wrote in his memoirs he witnessed the Miracle of the Sun in 1950 while walking in the Vatican Gardens. I have heard of this vaguely, like so many things about Fatima, it certainly makes me curious. Plenty of references to this on the web.

This website states:
On three successive days, Oct. 30, Oct. 31 and Nov. 1, 1950, said the Cardinal, the miraculous vision of Fátima was repeated for Pope Pius XII: “The Holy Father turned his gaze from the Vatican gardens toward the sun, and there was renewed for his eyes the miracle of this valley.” Nov. 1 was the day the Pope proclaimed the dogma of the bodily ascension of the Virgin Mary into Heaven.
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andrew4jc.blogspot.com/2007/10/miracle-of-sun.html

I definitely did not know this but is it correct to say “bodily ascension” in the last sentence instead of Assumption? Perhaps.
 
I wished to amend my last post that according to the blog, the below quote comes from none other than Time magazine itself: time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,815626,00.html
myself but it quotes Time magazine:
On three successive days, Oct. 30, Oct. 31 and Nov. 1, 1950, said the Cardinal, the miraculous vision of Fátima was repeated for Pope Pius XII: “The Holy Father turned his gaze from the Vatican gardens toward the sun, and there was renewed for his eyes the miracle of this valley.” Nov. 1 was the day the Pope proclaimed the dogma of the bodily ascension of the Virgin Mary into Heaven.
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andrew4jc.blogspot.com/2007/10/miracle-of-sun.html

I definitely did not know this but is it correct to say “bodily ascension” in the last sentence instead of Assumption? Perhaps.
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The Time article apparently comes from Oct. 22, 1951. So, I think this must not have been clear to the writer for Time magazine in this article. Probably a minor point nonetheless.
 
Areopagite said:
I don’t believe in Fatima.

But I haven’t considered it seriously either. Honestly, I was sort of turned off to Fatima when wacko right-wing schismatics tried using it to condemn the last five or six Popes.
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I will answer to my questions with a proper reply showing respect to self Catholic participation and the integrity of its teachings and translation.

We know that the idea of heaven or eternal salvation is not a possible absolute comprehension. There is mystery in the understandings and teachings with grasping even an
idea of how self soul awareness can be achieved. Time, process, eternity, objectives… are all
difficult to know and “translate into a concrete knowledge or expectation”

There is dimension in eternity which cannot be accessed or understood fully .

The idea of hell would obviously hold the same unclear concrete dimension in full understanding. The Church does not teach that anyone in fact is in this eternal location and suggests in the Catechism and encyclopedia that we can pray “indifferent of time” for the souls of the dead. These two teachings add to the in-ability to entirely grasp the hell idea.

In short we cannot “know” other than a mysterious dimension which cannot be held to be
…in operation… (complete compliance with teachings, regardless of Fatima’s event

Therefore my answer to my question in all this includes an acceptance of the teachings with the
intelligent translation that the idea is a dimensional and is not shown or taught to be in operation by virtue of known occupants.

Therefore the teaching itself cannot be absolutely categorized, as a self known factual reality in …translation. The rational association with the word is then the hellish existence in ones life living apart from God-love. No other concrete comprehension is available due to the above two
items in teachings re praying for the dead and non occupancy

Therefore FS (thats me) forget about it and have a nice day. PS…don’t come back to this thread because someone will come along looking for a word or sentence to take out of context and chew you out …causing you to justify to some strange person how…you feel best serves your life and responsibilities …
 
Areopagite said:
I don’t believe in Fatima.

But I haven’t considered it seriously either. Honestly, I was sort of turned off to Fatima when wacko right-wing schismatics tried using it to condemn the last five or six Popes.
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I think that the most important part of what happened at Fatima was the miracle. Irrespective of whether you’ve heard the whole message, it is another supernatural event pointing to the Catholic Church as the only institution of Jesus Christ.

I also find it interesting that Bl. Pope John Paul II stated in a homily at Mass in Fatima (1982) that “the appeal of the Lady of the message of Fatima is so deeply rooted in the Gospel and the whole of Tradition that the Church feels that the message imposes a commitment on her.” Personally, if I didn’t know what the message was, and heard the Pope say that, I’d at least be curious to check it all out 😛 .

– Nicole
 
FurtherSuntime said:
I will answer to my questions with a proper reply showing respect to self Catholic participation and the integrity of its teachings and translation.

We know that the idea of heaven or eternal salvation is not a possible absolute comprehension. There is mystery in the understandings and teachings with grasping even an
idea of how self soul awareness can be achieved. Time, process, eternity, objectives… are all
difficult to know and “translate into a concrete knowledge or expectation”

There is dimension in eternity which cannot be accessed or understood fully .

The idea of hell would obviously hold the same unclear concrete dimension in full understanding. The Church does not teach that anyone in fact is in this eternal location and suggests in the Catechism and encyclopedia that we can pray “indifferent of time” for the souls of the dead. These two teachings add to the in-ability to entirely grasp the hell idea.

In short we cannot “know” other than a mysterious dimension which cannot be held to be
…in operation… (complete compliance with teachings, regardless of Fatima’s event

Therefore my answer to my question in all this includes an acceptance of the teachings with the
intelligent translation that the idea is a dimensional and is not shown or taught to be in operation by virtue of known occupants.

Therefore the teaching itself cannot be absolutely categorized, as a self known factual reality in …translation. The rational association with the word is then the hellish existence in ones life living apart from God-love. No other concrete comprehension is available due to the above two
items in teachings re praying for the dead and non occupancy

Therefore FS (thats me) forget about it and have a nice day. PS…don’t come back to this thread because someone will come along looking for a word or sentence to take out of context and chew you out …causing you to justify to some strange person how…you feel best serves your life and responsibilities …
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Intelligent translation? Where? by who?

So because we can not know for certain the full meanings, let us dismiss them? Why not error with safety? Why not go with what we do know?

Don’t get me wrong, I understand believing in what you are most comfortable with, even tho that may not be the most accurate or correct. But to suggest that because we don’t have the whole picture it is better to dismiss it, is imho not the wisest.
 
I don’t believe it either - Lucia had a propensity to tell fanciful stories and the supposed Marian statements are quite questionable.
 
MarcusAndreas said:
Details?
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Her stories about seeing ghosts (white, floaty creatures) and meeting with the guardian angel of Portugal :rolleyes:

Then statements like God wanting the world to be dedicated to Mary’s heart, rather than Jesus’ etc.

And the vision of Hell as a literal place of fire and brimstone.
 
Heuchler said:
I don’t worry about it. It hasn’t helped me to convert or anything of that sort and I’m not required to believe so I just don’t even really look into it.
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Very interesting thread, I just wish there was a poll associated with it. The responses are very different from what I expected when I started looking at it.

I started out with the opinion stated above, and then someone made me aware of the websites that say that the abberition wasn’t Our Lady (I don’t believe the abberition ever titles herself as Mary, though I could be wrong), that it was demonic. This prompted me to do some investigation (most of it on the Fatima website).

I do think the abberition happened, including the miracle of the sun. If it was demonic, I don’t see the reasoning, as Mary doesn’t seem to tell people to do anything that seems offensive to God. But, I do see some things that appear to be inconsistent with the Bible. The one that comes to mind is Our Lady says that Francisco will make it in to Heaven only by “praying many rosaries”.

Anyway, I researched it for a while, then lost interest and ended up where I started. I just don’t like people that try to ram Fatima down your throat, I have one in my family.

Thanks for this thread, I’m now confident that I don’t need to have an opinion on Fatima.
 
If anyone is interested, there is a very good timeline here:

miraclehunter.com/marian_apparitions/approved_apparitions/fatima/index.html

And at the end a link to the messages as written by the seers.

As to the miracle of the sun, too many witnesses and too many of them were atheists for me to discount it at all. Also, the fact that it was seen by people in places, iirc, 70 miles away unaware of the events in the field, all leads to belief.

The problem with the messages is: the first parts were written down after the fact. But Sr Lucy continued to have visions all her life, and later prophecy was right on.
 
Julia_Mae said:
If anyone is interested, there is a very good timeline here:

miraclehunter.com/marian_apparitions/approved_apparitions/fatima/index.html

And at the end a link to the messages as written by the seers.

As to the miracle of the sun, too many witnesses and too many of them were atheists for me to discount it at all. Also, the fact that it was seen by people in places, iirc, 70 miles away unaware of the events in the field, all leads to belief.

The problem with the messages is: the first parts were written down after the fact. But Sr Lucy continued to have visions all her life, and later prophecy was right on.
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Julia,

The timeline link you posted seems to have errors. The Consecration of Russia has not been completed correctly as Our Lady has asked and the 3rd secret has not been revealed in its entirety.
 
nice2000 said:
Julia,

The timeline link you posted seems to have errors. The Consecration of Russia has not been completed correctly as Our Lady has asked and the 3rd secret has not been revealed in its entirety.
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Depends on who you believe. Sr Lucy reportedly confirmed Russia’s consecration was done and the last part of the message was revealed. So, as that is the Vatican line, that is what the site reports. Until such time as something definitive changes that, they are not in error.
 
Julia_Mae said:
Depends on who you believe. Sr Lucy reportedly confirmed Russia’s consecration was done and the last part of the message was revealed. So, as that is the Vatican line, that is what the site reports. Until such time as something definitive changes that, they are not in error.
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I disagree. Russia’s consecrecration was not properly done. It is like a recipe…If you leave out the main ingredient(s) it is not going to work. also there are still missing parts to the 3rd secret.
 
nice2000 said:
I disagree. Russia’s consecrecration was not properly done. It is like a recipe…If you leave out the main ingredient(s) it is not going to work. also there are still missing parts to the 3rd secret.
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The issue here was if the site is in error. It is not, it reflects the best information that can be publicly validated at this time… I am not saying you are wrong, but your disagreement is not with me or the site, it’s with the Vatican. I don’t think they read here.
 
razredge said:
I don’t believe it - mainly because the statements of the seers are so fanciful and far more likely to be the work of human imagination than of divine origin.
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That’s kind of interesting, you don’t believe it for one of the main reasons that I do believe it; the matters that the children report as messages from the angel and from the Lady are’nt really at all within the scope of the imagination of three children living in this small Portugese town at that time, in fact I don’t think most of it was within the scope of the imagination or speculation of many of the adults at that time. They said they were told things like, fashions will be introduced which are immodest and indecent. The children never had any exposure to anything other than the plain and simple dress of the portugese catholic of their culture, their little world had never been contaminated with the decadence of western modernism, how would they make up such a thing, they probably didn’t even know what indecent dress looked like and if they did why would they think a prediction like that would bring them approval. They also said they were told that the marriages would be bad, again a shocking prediction for it’s time and that place but another that undeniably has come true on a world wide scale in the 20th and 21st centuries. They probably didn’t even fathom what a bad marriage could be let alone have known of any yet in their short lives. Was there even one divorce that any of them had ever heard of? I’m sure if there had been even one I’ll doubt it was ever spoken of by people there, especially not to children. They were told that they must pray and offer up penances for poor sinners who were destined to hell, even the most strictly trained child does not fabricate such a horrible vision, and then attach it to their beloved Mother Mary.
In the messages prayers are to be made for the conversion of Russia, at the time I don’t even know if it can be demonstrated that any of them knew where Russia is, but even if they did it would have been absolutely impossible for them to have known what no one else in the world knew that was about to take place in Russia, that being the murderous overthrow of the Czar who was a Christian Monarch and his entire family by the Atheist Marxist Bolshevik Communists. If the timelines match up and I can’t prove they do but the statement about the conversion of Russia took place even as the plot in St.Petersburg was already underway with cooperation from some higher ups of the Russian Orthodox Church. Again a prediction that another World War worse than the first one would begin, no one could in their worst nightmares imagine at the time a war that could have been worse than WWI, which was so horrific that it was called the “war to end all wars”.
If the children made all of this up how is it that everything that they said has been seen to come totally true?
 
Julia_Mae said:
The issue here was if the site is in error. It is not, it reflects the best information that can be publicly validated at this time… I am not saying you are wrong, but your disagreement is not with me or the site, it’s with the Vatican. I don’t think they read here.
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Hi Julia, It is okay if they (Vatican) do not read here. 😉 The Vatican is already aware that many disagree. I just wanted to put my two cents in and state that I do BELIEVE on what happened at Fatima.
 
There probably are but I don’t see why? Fatima was a huge miracle witnessed by many people.


  1. *]Sick people were reported be healed.
    *]After the miracle the clothes that were wet were dried during the rain. An engineer who was there said that only a 10 megaton bomb can do that! And if that happened everyone would be burned to death.
    *]In Fatima, Mary said Russia would spread its power throughout the world, and at that time, Russia was the third weakest country in the world.
    *]She said another worse war would happen during the reign of Pius XI (he wasn’t even pope at that time!
    *]She said that a bright light would signal God’s punishment, and light appeared over Europe it was so bright people in Switzerland could read their newspaper at 11:00 pm at night! (the only way man can replicate that light is through an atomic explosion!)
    *]They exhumed Jacinta’s corpse and it remained incorrupt!

    Hopefully, everyone who reads this will know the truth about Fatima.

    God bless :byzsoc:

    David
 
I don’t believe in it because I’ve never bothered to really look into it. It just doesn’t seem all that important. If it is a true apparition it clearly wasn’t meant for me because I have no interest in it.

Same with most apparitions, approved or not. I’m just not that interested. There’s more then enough for me to deal with in Scripture - I don’t need new revelations to muddle things up further! LOL.
 
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