Are there any Faithful Catholics voting for Pro Choice Candidates here?

[lil_flower_luv]

Faithful, well catechized, Catholics with properly formed consciences can vote for a pro-abortion candidate only when there are no pro-life candidates.

That’s a lie.

It in fact says in the voter guide:

10. What if all the candidates from whom I have to choose are pro-abortion? Do I have to abstain from voting at all? What do I do?

Obviously, one of these candidates is going to win the election. Thus, in this dilemma, you should do your best to judge which candidate would do the least moral harm. However, as explained in question 5 above, you should not place a candidate who is pro-capital punishment (and anti-abortion) in the same moral category as a candidate who is pro-abortion. Faced with such a set of candidates, there would be no moral dilemma, and the clear moral obligation would be to vote for the candidate who is pro-capital punishment, not necessarily because he is pro-capital punishment, but because he is anti-abortion.

Don’t vote for a pro-abortion candidate. Period.

 

[estesbob]

No need for quotation marks. You have no right to judge anyone’s devotion to God.

And when you are an unemployed person with a family and have a pro-choice candidate who has the policies that will give you a job vs. a pro-life candidate who will do nothing to help you in your situation, you’d vote for the pro-choice candidate. Voters can’t always get exactly what they want unless they run for office themselves.

How many dead children is an acceptable trade for obtaining a job?

 

[MarianD]

How many dead children is an acceptable trade for obtaining a job?

And how devoted are you to life if you don’t care about the consequences of declaring war for political reasons?

 

[estesbob]

Perhaps it’s best to look at the what the church says:

1. Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.

Cardinal Ratzinger

You can never vote for someone who favors absolutely the right to choice of a woman to destroy a human life in her womb or the right to a procured abortion
Cardinal Burke

When political positions openly or covertly include plans to decriminalize abortion and euthanasia, the democratic ideal – which is truly democratic only when it acknowledges and safeguards the dignity of every human person – is betrayed at its foundations," Pope Benedict

 

[estesbob]

And how devoted are you to life if you don’t care about the consequences of declaring war for political reasons?

As I posted before the Pope specifically said that ones support of war was in no way morally equivalent to supporting abortion. Whether the Iraq war was declared for political reasons or not is totally irrelevant as to whether a Catholic can vote for a politician who supports abortion. No issues or combination of issues trump abortion. All rights flow from the right to life. What good is low unemployment and national healthcare to one who was slaughtered in the womb?

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Last night, I was praying that we would hear a strong message about what Catholics need to do in the voting booth. TUESDAY is a very important day in this nation’s history and its future. We can stop what’s happening including de-funding of this horrible monstrosity of a bill called a “health care” bill, which will increase funding and availability of abortions.

WRONG! I got a lame explanation of why Catholics don’t freak out about Halloween and how it’s just fine to go out in costume and have fun. We are more relaxed than the Protestants so we don’t worry about becoming pagans again. As if I hadn’t known all that before!

This is why I am so exasperated with my Church right now! Where is the leadership? Where is the direction? This is why Catholics voted for Barack Obama in about the same numbers as the general population! At least it’s one reason.

That is the end for me. I am not contributing to my church unless and until I start hearing clarification because so many Catholics are confused and deceived. My tithe will go to my local pro-life organization because they are out there on the front lines, saving babies and truly helping women.

I’m not giving up on the Catholic Church. I was so disappointed and angry that for Catholics, a candidate’s skin color and party affiliation was more important than his anti-life stand, I did consider leaving. But I am going to put my money where it can be best used, and if they want to form a PAC and support pro-life politicians, great.

I also contribute to pro-life candidates all over the country, especially when the race is close. I’m amazed when people say voting pro-life doesn’t make a difference! It makes ALL the difference! Because under the issue of abortion, are a lot of other issues that line up with what the Church teaches, and if a candidate is pro-life, he or she is more likely to believe in individual rights given to us by God, and that the country is basically a great one and that government doesn’t need to interfere in every aspect of our lives. If pro-abortion, the candidate also believes in welfare and intervention as a nanny state to keep us from hurting ourselves with our freedoms. (this is the short version)

It is more than pro-life, but that is the key aspect. That is the main non-negotiable. I am still learning how Catholics are justifying voting for someone like Barack Obama. Glad everyone is honest about it.

 

[estesbob]

"Let’s say that in 2016, the unemployment rate will be sky high. Healthcare costs will also be sky high. Taxes will be the same, as will the poverty rate.

The Presidential election is between Candidate X, who is pro-choice, and Candidate Y, who is pro-life.

Candidate X’s policies will lower the unemployment rate, lower healthcare costs, lower taxes, and lower the poverty rate. This will help so many people get by in this already difficult life. But, Candidate X is pro-choice.

Meanwhile, Candidate Y’s policies will only make these problems worse. However, Candidate Y is pro-life.

I could not in good conscience ignore the 315 million Americans (as there probably will be in 2016) who are suffering and struggling just so Candidate Y can ruin the nation but support pro-life policies that will not pass through Congress for him to sign anyway.

I will.

Interesting-it is exactly this rationale that many Catholics use to vote for Barack Obama in 2008. Two years later we have skyrocketed unemployment, tricks fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq, skyrocketing debt and foreclosures at all time highs. In addition to this we got a president who is so morally deficient he supports unrestricted taxpayer funded abortions on demand.

A person who supports abortion is so morally deficient they should not be entrusted in any position of leadership regardless of how much you might like their other policies.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Sending young men and women off to fight a useless war is a waste of their lives and the lives of the innocents in the nation that is being invaded. This is a human life issue as well. This is why I’d tend to support an anti-war pro-choice candidate over a pro-war pro-life candidate.

Even then, I wouldn’t go out and say Sen. John Kerry or VP Joe Biden are not Catholics because of their stances on abortion. They see the issue from different perspectives than we do, but both see it as morally wrong. The human mind and the political sphere is far too complicated to declare one a non-Catholic simply because of their views on abortion.

Let’s say that in 2016, the unemployment rate will be sky high. Healthcare costs will also be sky high. Taxes will be the same, as will the poverty rate.

The Presidential election is between Candidate X, who is pro-choice, and Candidate Y, who is pro-life.

Candidate X’s policies will lower the unemployment rate, lower healthcare costs, lower taxes, and lower the poverty rate. This will help so many people get by in this already difficult life. But, Candidate X is pro-choice.

Meanwhile, Candidate Y’s policies will only make these problems worse. However, Candidate Y is pro-life.

I could not in good conscience ignore the 315 million Americans (as there probably will be in 2016) who are suffering and struggling just so Candidate Y can ruin the nation but support pro-life policies that will not pass through Congress for him to sign anyway.

You just described scenarios that have a pro-choice candidate advancing policies that will lower taxes, healthcare costs and increase jobs? Where have you been the last two years? The most pro abortion president and politicians that this country has ever known have proven their policies are PRO DEATH across the spectrum! So no need for your “hypotheticals”, my friend!
With regard to Biden and Kerry, Pelosi and Kennedy calling themselves “Catholic” while supporting and advancing abortion, as well as funding them in ethnic neighborhoods through Planned Parenthood and community health organizations?
That would make them eugenicists.That would make them heretics.

 

[MarianD]

Perhaps it’s best to look at the what the church says:

1. Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.

Cardinal Ratzinger

You can never vote for someone who favors absolutely the right to choice of a woman to destroy a human life in her womb or the right to a procured abortion
Cardinal Burke

When political positions openly or covertly include plans to decriminalize abortion and euthanasia, the democratic ideal – which is truly democratic only when it acknowledges and safeguards the dignity of every human person – is betrayed at its foundations," Pope Benedict

This is where things get complicated. Clearly, abortion is wrong and is required belief for every Catholic. Many (unfortunately not all) Catholics agree with this.

But when it comes to voting, things get so complicated. The worrying Catholic father of a man serving in Afghanistan can’t vote for a pro-life candidate who will keep his son in Afghanistan. The impoverished Catholic woman with kids can’t vote for a pro-life candidate who is anti-social programs and will do nothing to help the woman’s situation. Very few people can bring themselves to give their consent for their own suffering.

So yes, Catholics should vote for pro-life candidates as according to the Church. But I really can’t come to grips with pro-life candidates being the only choice for all Catholics, regardless of their other policies, because it’s just not that simple for so many people. That was my original point—how can one be deemed non-Catholic simply because they don’t want their son to die in war or they need a job to feed their kids, even if that means voting for the pro-choice candidate?

Why are there so few pro-life candidates who will also help the already born human beings?

 

[TheRealJuliane]

You just described scenarios that have a pro-choice candidate advancing policies that will lower taxes, healthcare costs and increase jobs? Where have you been the last two years? The most pro abortion president and politicians that this country has ever known have proven their policies are PRO DEATH across the spectrum! So no need for your “hypotheticals”, my friend!
With regard to Biden and Kerry, Pelosi and Kennedy calling themselves “Catholic” while supporting and advancing abortion, as well as funding them in ethnic neighborhoods through Planned Parenthood and community health organizations?
That would make them eugenicists.That would make them heretics.

If our Church were where it needs to be, these baby-killers would have been excommunicated long ago. And very publicly. They sure wouldn’t be getting the Eucharist every Sunday and being able to convince themselves that they are Catholics in good standing.

 

[MarianD]

You just described scenarios that have a pro-choice candidate advancing policies that will lower taxes, healthcare costs and increase jobs? Where have you been the last two years? The most pro abortion president and politicians that this country has ever known have proven their policies are PRO DEATH across the spectrum! So no need for your “hypotheticals”, my friend!

Remember I said earlier “I’m not talking about Obama”.

You say that no one can be Catholic and vote for a pro-choice candidate ever. So I’m bringing up hypothetical but very plausible situations that affect many Catholic voters. Cases where voting for a candidate isn’t as simple as pro-life vs. pro-choice because of other factors

 

[Rascalking]

So, by staying home and letting the pro-choice canidate win, how in the world does that further the pro-life cause?

Or, by voting for some obscure third party and letting the pro-choice canidate win, how in the world does that further the pro-life cause?

The perfect is the enemy of the good. We should, as pro-lifers, realize that.

 

[estesbob]

Remember I said earlier “I’m not talking about Obama”.

You say that no one can be Catholic and vote for a pro-choice candidate ever. So I’m bringing up hypothetical but very plausible situations that affect many Catholic voters. Cases where voting for a candidate isn’t as simple as pro-life vs. pro-choice because of other factors

Well I suspect I’m a little older than you and I can tell you that never in any election have I run across scenario you set up. But regardless even if such a scenario were borne out a Catholic could not vote for the candidate who supported abortion regardless of how great he might be on the other issues. If you believe that I am misleading you I would appreciate you do the same as I have done, and that is quote the Church teaching that backs up your opinion.

 

[Black_Rose]

Last night, I was praying that we would hear a strong message about what Catholics need to do in the voting booth. TUESDAY is a very important day in this nation’s history and its future. We can stop what’s happening including de-funding of this horrible monstrosity of a bill called a “health care” bill, which will increase funding and availability of abortions.

WRONG! I got a lame explanation of why Catholics don’t freak out about Halloween and how it’s just fine to go out in costume and have fun. We are more relaxed than the Protestants so we don’t worry about becoming pagans again. As if I hadn’t known all that before!

This is why I am so exasperated with my Church right now! Where is the leadership? Where is the direction? This is why Catholics voted for Barack Obama in about the same numbers as the general population! At least it’s one reason.

That’s not the only reason why you oppose the “spirit” and letter of the health care bill. Don’t try to frame your opposition to it as based on the transcendent morality of the sanctity of life when you are merely philosophically opposed to government programs.

 

[estesbob]

So, by staying home and letting the pro-choice canidate win, how in the world does that further the pro-life cause?

Or, by voting for some obscure third party and letting the pro-choice canidate win, how in the world does that further the pro-life cause?

The perfect is the enemy of the good. We should, as pro-lifers, realize that.

If both candidates are equally pro-abortion you may indeed vote for the one you feel is better than on the other issues. We are not required to throw our vote away on a non-viable third party candidate no are we required to sit out an election because neither candidate is perfectly alignment with church teaching.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

This is where things get complicated. Clearly, abortion is wrong and is required belief for every Catholic. Many (unfortunately not all) Catholics agree with this.

But when it comes to voting, things get so complicated. The worrying Catholic father of a man serving in Afghanistan can’t vote for a pro-life candidate who will keep his son in Afghanistan. The impoverished Catholic woman with kids can’t vote for a pro-life candidate who is anti-social programs and will do nothing to help the woman’s situation. Very few people can bring themselves to give their consent for their own suffering.

So yes, Catholics should vote for pro-life candidates as according to the Church. But I really can’t come to grips with pro-life candidates being the only choice for all Catholics, regardless of their other policies, because it’s just not that simple for so many people. That was my original point—how can one be deemed non-Catholic simply because they don’t want their son to die in war or they need a job to feed their kids, even if that means voting for the pro-choice candidate?

Why are there so few pro-life candidates who will also help the already born human beings?

No, no, no! For a Catholic, this is a NON NEGOTIABLE!!! Do you not understand that term?? You are letting your politics interfere with your morals. We don’t vote on those issues, they are specific to our own lives. We vote on the issue of LIFE.

How can a Catholic, even one who has a son in Afganistan (who forced that young man to join the military?? No one!) or who needs a job, vote for a party whose platform includes UNLIMITED UNFETTERED ACCESS TO MURDER BABIES??? How? You cannot justify this in any way. As long as there is a pro-life candidate on the ballot Catholics should never vote for a Democrat. Rationalizations aside. It really is a non-negotiable.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

That’s not the only reason why you oppose the “spirit” and letter of the health care bill. Don’t try to frame your opposition to it as based on the transcendent morality of the sanctity of life when you are merely philosophically opposed to government programs.

Don’t tell me what my motivations are, you don’t know me. I am opposed to abortions period. Either funded by the government or not.

 

[estesbob]

That’s not the only reason why you oppose the “spirit” and letter of the health care bill. Don’t try to frame your opposition to it as based on the transcendent morality of the sanctity of life when you are merely philosophically opposed to government programs.

I don’t find the s sanctity of life to be based on any transaction morality. I cannot believe that any thinking person would think that any healthcare bill should pay for killing children. Because Democrats insisted that this bill pay for such it was a nonstarter regardless of how much people might have liked the other provisions.

 

[Rascalking]

If both candidates are equally pro-abortion you may indeed vote for the one you feel is better than on the other issues. We are not required to throw our vote away on a non-viable third party candidate no are we required to sit out an election because neither candidate is perfectly alignment with church teaching.

Badda-bing. There you go.

Argument over people. Anyone want to watch the World Series with me?

 

[estesbob]

Don’t tell me what my motivations are, you don’t know me. I am opposed to abortions period. Either funded by the government or not.

It is a lot easier to tell people what it is they believe and then attack them for that belief than it is to really address the issues they bought up!