Are there any Faithful Catholics voting for Pro Choice Candidates here?

[JReducation]

Where does the Catholic Church teach that?

Everywhere my friend. You can’t look for one sentence that says, “Don’t vote for this person.” That’s not the way that the Church teaches. She never has spoken that way and never will. She teaches principles.

One source to which I can point you is to Evangelium Vitae, where the entire concept of voting and the proper exercise of democracy is explained in light of the Fathers of the Church and Christan Tradition.

The Church is very clear that the proper exercise of democracy is to promote the good.

Join to that what Aquinas explains about the highest good. One always has a moral duty to choose the higher of two goods.

Finally, add to that the fundamental moral principle in moral theology, a choice for the lesser of two evils is still a choice for evil and man may never choose any evil.

If we take these three principles and all of the other principles taught to us in moral theology we can conclude that we cannot morally vote for a pro-choice candidate. A pro-choice candidate will support an immoral position. To cast ouir vote for such a person is to empower him or her in the wrong direction. Our elected officials must represnt our moral values.

Rerum Novarum, Evangelium Vitae, and Lumen Gentium all make it very clear that government does not exist for its own benefit, but for the benefit of its citizens.

Then we have the moral example of great saints who gave up their lives fighting governments who stood between the citizen and the law of God. All of them were martyred, beginning with the prophets. If we honor the martyrs, we must ask ourselves, why so?

They gave their lives for the faith. This means that they espoused a moral value and a set of beliefs that was in conflict with the state. That’s why the state executed them. Two that should help us in dealing with the state are Thomas More and John Eudes. When the rubber hit the road, they were first and foremost, sons of the Church, then faithful citizens. They gave their lives rather than compromise with an immoral state. More’s last statement is very powerful. “I die a faithful servant of the King, but foremost, a son of the Church.”

Why honor these men and women, if we believe that we can vote for a pro-choice candidate? Someone like Mother Teresa loses her meaning in our Christian tradition. One of the constant criticisms that she made of American Catholics was “American Cathoics are the poorest men and women in the world, because they have to power to stop the killing of their children and they do not use it.” When John Paul II visited Baltimore around 1991 or 92, he said, “America, you have received much, but you will also have to answer for much, because you have allowed your children to be killed.”

All of these principles together, lead to one conclusion. We cannot be faithful to the Catholic Church and empower those who are willing to ignore her. This is why Thomas More and many other martyrs died. They refused to compromise. You’re either a son of the Church or you’r not.

Anyone who votes for a pro-choice candidate and honors the martyrs does not understand why the mayrtyrs died.

I always look at my own Franciscan brother, Maximilian Kolbe. He preferred to give his life, rather han allow one innocent man to die. If we are to be true to our Caholic heritage, then we must be like Maximilian. We should be willing to suffer whatever it takes, rather than let one innocent person die.

Children should not be killed in the womb or in pitri dishes. Such an act is barbarism at its best. Unemployment, poor roads, less schools and other hardships should be more tolerable than the thought of an innocent person being killed.

Good roads, better schools, safer neighborhoods, etc are all goods. But none is on the same rung in the hierarchy of good as the right to life. That is a principle that has been handed down to us from the scriptures, through the Fathers of the Church, her martyrs, her great doctors, our popes and other Catholic traditions and teachings.

These are men and women who support the right to abortion, the right to kill unused embryos in pitri dishes, and infanticide. How can we claim to be faithful Catholics and empower someone to make laws or support existing laws that allow for the killing of the innocent?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[diggerdomer]

One source to which I can point you is to Evangelium Vitae, where the entire concept of voting and the proper exercise of democracy is explained in light of the Fathers of the Church and Christan Tradition.

Ok, so following on the question I raised in response to the post I responded to, where does Evangelium Vitae say Catholic cannot vote for a “pro-choice” (whatever that means) candidate? Paragraph number please?

The Church is very clear that the proper exercise of democracy is to promote the good.

Yes, of course. Again, I was responding to someone who claimed Catholics cannot vote for a “pro-choice” candidate (whatever that means). Where does the Church teach such?

Join to that what Aquinas explains about the highest good. One always has a moral duty to choose the higher of two goods.

Finally, add to that the fundamental moral principle in moral theology, a choice for the lesser of two evils is still a choice for evil and man may never choose any evil.

So are you suggesting that given the choice of two candidates, as we often are, both of whom may support (supposedly) “evils” according to Catholic teaching, the Catholic response is …what? Not to vote? Or to vote, even if that means choosing the lesser of two evils?

If we take these three principles and all of the other principles taught to us in moral theology we can conclude that we cannot morally vote for a pro-choice candidate.

Again, where, today, does the Church teach such? Catechism? Bishops’ statements? Anywhere clearly?

A pro-choice candidate will support an immoral position.

This completely depends on the subjective label of “pro-choice.” There are many politicians who are against abortion in principle but vote in ways that some Catholics consider contrary to a pro-life view. It’s not so black and white.

please note, the question raised is about voting for “pro-choice” candidates, not about voting for those who support abortion.

 

[Orleans_Attny]

. . . It’s not so black and white.

Yes it is. One either believes that every abortion (every-single-one) is an intrinsic evil, or one doesn’t.

The Catholic viewpoint is the former, and a Catholic should apply that principle when he or she steps into the voting booth.

Or don’t - but that decision is opposed to the Church that God established; and if one chooses to separate herself or himself from the Church, the least that one should do is be honest about it.

I find it hard to believe you pretend to not know what Pro-lfie and Pro-Choice mean. But for simplicity sake: Pro-Choice means supporting a woman’s continued legal option of terminating her pregnancy for that single goal.

Black and white: Would a Catholic vote for a health-care bill that did wonderful things for almost everyone in the country, but that contained a provision that funded abortion or expanded abortion services?

Absolutley not.

Pax,
OA

 

[diggerdomer]

Yes it is. One either believes that every abortion (every-single-one) is an intrinsic evil, or one doesn’t.

Please read more carefully.

I never said nor implied that the issue of abortion was not black/white.

 

[Orleans_Attny]

Please read more carefully.

I never said nor implied that the issue of abortion was not black/white.

OK.

This completely depends on the subjective label of “pro-choice.” There are many politicians who are against abortion in principle but vote in ways that some Catholics consider contrary to a pro-life view. It’s not so black and white.

And I say that: Yes, Virginia, it really is black and white.

Pax,
OA

 

[diggerdomer]

I find it hard to believe you pretend to not know what Pro-lfie and Pro-Choice mean.

I never said nor suggested such.

My point is, the Catholic Church does not teach authoritatively what “pro-choice” means. Does She? Do you agree or disagree? If you disagree, can you please provide a reference?

Given that fact (unless you know otherwise) anyone who claims that the Catholic Church teaches one cannot vote for a so-called “pro-choice” candidate bears the burden of proof. Where does the Catholic Church define what a “pro-choice” candidate is, which is necessary if the Catholic Church teaches that Catholics cannot vote for a “pro-choice” candidate?

“Pro-choice” is a secular, political, and ultimately subjective label. It is not…unlike abortion…clearly black/white, intrinsically evil (or not), etc., according to Catholic teaching.

Yes, of course the Catholic Church teaches one cannot vote for abortion…not for any other intrinsic evil (including e.g. racism).

That’s simply not the same as saying a Catholic can vote for a so-called “pro choice” (again, whatever that means) candidate.

 

[Orleans_Attny]

I never said nor suggested such.

My point is, the Catholic Church does not teach authoritatively what “pro-choice” means. Does She? Do you agree or disagree? If you disagree, can you please provide a reference?

Oh, I think you’re probably correct in that statement - as I don’t think the Church has published a Dictionary.

Merrian-Webster, however, has a definition: “favoring the legalization of abortion.” And the MacMillian dictionary describes it as an adjective meaning: “believing that pregnant women should be allowed to decide whether or not to have an abortion.” And the Cambridge Dictionary defines it as “supporting the belief that a pregnant woman should have the freedom to choose an abortion (the intentional ending of pregnancy) if she does not want to have a baby.”

Personally, I don’t think the Church need define common terms - particularly when the definition is rather universally understood.

Given that fact (unless you know otherwise) anyone who claims that the Catholic Church teaches one cannot vote for a so-called “pro-choice” candidate bears the burden of proof. Where does the Catholic Church define what a “pro-choice” candidate is, which is necessary if the Catholic Church teaches that Catholics cannot vote for a “pro-choice” candidate?

As the term is pro-choice (in the context of abortion) is so widely understood to mean the same thing: A Pro-choice candidate seems quite clearly one who subscribes to pro-choice beliefs (see definition above, as necessary). And application of Catholic doctrine and teachings will assist you in coming to the conclusion about whether a Catholic can vote for a candiate that is pro-choice. But if you don’t feel that dog will hunt, you are a fortunate person because as a member of a universal church with an apostolic succession you can always ask your priest.

“Pro-choice” is a secular, political, and ultimately subjective label. It is not…unlike abortion…clearly black/white, intrinsically evil (or not), etc., according to Catholic teaching.

That’s just not true. There is nothing subjective about the term pro-choice. If you’d like to contend otherwise, I’d rather enjoy that particular feat of verbal contortion.

Pax,
OA

 

[diggerdomer]

Oh, I think you’re probably correct in that statement - as I don’t think the Church has published a Dictionary.

Merrian-Webster, however, has a definition: “favoring the legalization of abortion.” And the MacMillian dictionary describes it as an adjective meaning: “believing that pregnant women should be allowed to decide whether or not to have an abortion.” And the Cambridge Dictionary defines it as “supporting the belief that a pregnant woman should have the freedom to choose an abortion (= the intentional ending of pregnancy) if she does not want to have a baby.”

But Merriam-Webster, Cambridge, etc. do not judge people sinful, nor pretend to claim to teach on salvific truths, so I think regarding sin etc. we should stick to what the Catholic Church teaches (as Catholics).

Personally, I don’t think the Church need define common terms - particularly when the definition is rather universally understood.

The definition of what?

Abortion? Yes, of course.

Pro-choice (and Pro-life)? Honestly, I don’t think those terms are universally taught nor understood by most Catholics. Do you? If so, why? Any clear and explicit teaching from the Magisterium?

As the term is pro-choice (in the context of abortion) is so widely understood to mean the same thing: A Pro-choice candidate seems quite clearly one who subscribes to pro-choice beliefs (see definition above, as necessary).

The definition you gave above is not from the Catholic Church, so I don’t see it as all that relevant to a Catholic understanding. Do you?

That’s just not true. There is nothing subjective about the term pro-choice. If you’d like to contend otherwise, I’d rather enjoy that particular feat of verbal contortion.

There’s non verbal contortion intended nor implied. I’m simply asking, where does the Catholic Church define, explicitly and clearly for the Faithful, what your term “pro-choice” means?

Shouldn’t this be clear?

Either the Catholic Church defines it, or not…right? Or no?

Abortion is clearly defined…an intrinsic evil…one can never vote in support of it. Absolutely. Does any Catholic disagree?

But where does the Catholic Church teach about so-called “pro-choice” candidates?

 

[JReducation]

Ok, so following on the question I raised in response to the post I responded to, where does Evangelium Vitae say Catholic cannot vote for a “pro-choice” (whatever that means) candidate? Paragraph number please?

I told you before. You’re asking the wrong question. The Church does not speak that way. You have to read the entire document. The Church uses rhetoric to explain her position and revealed truths. She does not spout out one liners. That is not the way that God communicates.

Yes, of course. Again, I was responding to someone who claimed Catholics cannot vote for a “pro-choice” candidate (whatever that means). Where does the Church teach such?

I’ll give you the same answer as before. You must look at the Church’s history. Every martyr has died rather than compromise. It is the collective experience that becomes the teaching.

A pro-choice candidate means one that believes that there should be a law that allows women to chooose to have an abortion. Such a law is immoral and has no right to exist. Therefore, you’re voting for someone who believes in the right to a law that is immoral.

So are you suggesting that given the choice of two candidates, as we often are, both of whom may support (supposedly) “evils” according to Catholic teaching, the Catholic response is …what? Not to vote? Or to vote, even if that means choosing the lesser of two evils?

You may never choose the lesser of two evis, because evil is evil. You must always choose the greater of two good. If you have one canidate who says that he will vote for more taxes, but against legal abortion and another who says that he will feed every poor person in America, but support a woman’s right to choose. The greater good is the vote against legal abortion. It is great to feed every poor person in America, but it is even greater to stop the killing of the unborn.

Again, where, today, does the Church teach such? Catechism? Bishops’ statements? Anywhere clearly?

You’re looking for something that does not exist. You must read the entire deposit of faith, the tradition of the Fathers, the lives of the martyrs, the documents of the Church. I pointed you to Evangelium Vitae. It’s online. It’s not that long. Read it.

This completely depends on the subjective label of “pro-choice.” There are many politicians who are against abortion in principle but vote in ways that some Catholics consider contrary to a pro-life view. It’s not so black and white.

The Church’s position is very clear. To be against abortion one can never be pro-choice. That’s in canon law. A politician who is pro-choice is automatically excommunicated.

please note, the question raised is about voting for “pro-choice” candidates, not about voting for those who support abortion.

What does a pro-choice candidate support? If it isn’t a woman’s right to choose to have an abortion, then is he pro-choice? Is there another choice on the table?

The position of the Church is that there may never be a choice. Since there may never be a choice and this is an infallible truth, which was handed down to us from scripture, through the Fathers and affirmed by his Petrine authority under John Paul II, then there should be no politician who supports a law that gives people a right to make such a choice.

**Pope John Paul II, Evangelium Vitae, n. 57: “Therefore, by the authority which Christ conferred upon Peter and his Successors, and in communion with the Bishops of the Catholic Church, I confirm that the direct and voluntary killing of an innocent human being is always gravely immoral. This doctrine, based upon that unwritten law which man, in the light of reason, finds in his own heart (cf. Rom 2:14-15), is reaffirmed by Sacred Scripture, transmitted by the Tradition of the Church and taught by the ordinary and universal Magisterium.” **

**Those Catholics who promote abortion are automatically excommunicated for two reasons. First, they have fallen into the sin of heresy by believing that abortion is not always gravely immoral (canons 751 and 1364). Second, these Catholics are providing substantial assistance for women to obtain abortions by influencing public policy to make abortions legal, and to keep abortions legal, and to broaden access to abortion. Those who provide such substantial assistance commit a mortal sin and incur a sentence of automatic excommunication (canon 1398). **

Any Catholic politician who casts a vote with the intention of legalizing abortion, or of protecting laws allowing abortion, or of widening access to abortion, commits a mortal sin.

**When such a vote indicates that the Catholic politician believes that abortion is not always gravely immoral, such a politician incurs a sentence of automatic excommunication, under canons 751 and 1364, because of heresy. **

**The Magisterium has repeatedly and definitively taught that abortion is always gravely immoral. (CCC 2270 to 2275) **

If there is such a law and there is such a person who supports that law, the question is, should you be supporting that person when you can support one is opposed to such a law? There is no such thing as a pro-choice politician who is against legal abortions. He or she may claim that he would never make use of the law. That’s fine. But it’s not good enough for the Church. He must be committed to abrogate the law or he remains in a state of grave sin and if he is Catholic, he is automatically excommunicated. Why would you vote for someone who has excommunicated himself because he has committed what the Church has called the greatest sin in modern times?

Why would you want to be Catholic and not stand by the Church on this position? As St. Thomas More said, you either are or are not a son of the Church.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[diggerdomer]

I told you before. You’re asking the wrong question. The Church does not speak that way. You have to read the entire document. The Church uses rhetoric to explain her position and revealed truths. She does not spout out one liners. That is not the way that God communicates.

I agree. But the post I responded to appears to not understand this, and apparently (I may be wrong) our culture today also doesn’t share the Church’s perspective. Of course one has to read (as I have) the entire document.

I was simply responding to someone who made a claim about voting for so-called “pro-choice” candidates. Which Evangelium Vitae did not, nor does the Chruch, specifically define.

I didn’t originally ask the question, I was responding to what someone else proposed.

 

[diggerdomer]

I

A pro-choice candidate means one that believes that there should be a law that allows women to chooose to have an abortion.

This is an entirely subjective and contingent claim, depending on what exact law (legislative proposal, etc.) is under consideration by a given legislature/government.

The label “pro-choice” just as the label “pro-life” is used here in the U.S. (I admit, as I am in the U.S., I can only share a U.S. perspective) in completely subjective ways. The U.S. Bishops have not defined what exactly either terms mean, and have not taught that either such subjectively labelled candidates cannot be voted for by Catholics.

 

[JReducation]

But Merriam-Webster, Cambridge, etc. do not judge people sinful, nor pretend to claim to teach on salvific truths, so I think regarding sin etc. we should stick to what the Catholic Church teaches (as Catholics).

The definition of what?

Abortion? Yes, of course.

Pro-choice (and Pro-life)? Honestly, I don’t think those terms are universally taught nor understood by most Catholics. Do you? If so, why? Any clear and explicit teaching from the Magisterium?

The definition you gave above is not from the Catholic Church, so I don’t see it as all that relevant to a Catholic understanding. Do you?

There’s non verbal contortion intended nor implied. I’m simply asking, where does the Catholic Church define, explicitly and clearly for the Faithful, what your term “pro-choice” means?

Shouldn’t this be clear?

Either the Catholic Church defines it, or not…right? Or no?

Abortion is clearly defined…an intrinsic evil…one can never vote in support of it. Absolutely. Does any Catholic disagree?

But where does the Catholic Church teach about so-called “pro-choice” candidates?

The Devil works in very funny ways and you must be very careful. He is not called the Prince of Lies for nothing. Everyone knows that “pro-choice” means to favor the existence of a law that allows people to have and perform abortions.

The Devil now wants you to split hairs. Francisco de Osuna, one of the greatest Franciscan Mystics, once wrote that a common trick of the devil is to make us believe that everthing has to be spelled out by the Church and that if its not spelled out, then human reason is incapable of knowing truth. Therefore, since we are incapable of knowing truth, we are not bound to it. The Devil uses this to get people to say as you’re saying, “The Church has never defined pro-choice. Therefore, there is no Catholic defintion. Since there is no Catholic defintiion, Catholis can’t possibly know how to vote on this matter.”

Francisco de Osuna would tell you, “Don’t buy into Satan’s nonsense.” We all know the meaning of the term "pro-choice’. It was coined by those who created legalized abortion. They did not want to say that they were pro-abortion. They engaged in linguistic engineering. They called it “choice.” Just as they do not call it murder. They call it “termination of pregnancy.” They do not say that it’s a baby. “They call it tissue.” They do not tell people that an embryo or a zygote is simply one stage of human development, as is adolescence and senility.

The Devil is playing you and you’re falling into his game. The Church does not need to define every word for us to know what people mean when they use these words. This is one of the great conceps taught in Franciscan theology, which was later embraced by the Carmelite mystics and then taught by St. Ignatius and the early Jesuits. We have it on good authority, that the Church does not make it a habit of writing glossories and dictionaries. She only defines what is necessary to define for the sake of canon law or theology. When it comes to moral law, she uses the same words that everyone else uses. Pro-choice means those in favor of giving people the right to choose to have or not have an abortion. Such a choice may never be given. Therefore, to vote for someone who is willing to give such a choice, it to vote for someone who is willing to give citizens the right to murder if they wish to do so, even if the politician himself never commits the murder.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[diggerdomer]

The Church’s position is very clear. To be against abortion one can never be pro-choice. That’s in canon law.

Where in canon law does it say one can never be pro-choice?

 

[diggerdomer]

T Everyone knows that “pro-choice” means to favor the existence of a law that allows people to have and perform abortions.

Where does the Catholic Church teach this? I’ve never heard this before, so I guess I am not part of “everyone.”

 

[diggerdomer]

I
**The Magisterium has repeatedly and definitively taught that abortion is always gravely immoral. (CCC 2270 to 2275) **

Of course!

But that’s completely separate from teaching that a so-called “pro-choice” (whatever that means) candidate cannot be morally voted for by Catholics.

 

[JReducation]

Where does the Catholic Church teach this? I’ve never heard this before, so I guess I am not part of “everyone.”

Go back and read what I explained to you from the writings of Fracisco de Osuna. The Devil is playing you. You’re playing along. I can’ t believe it that you cannot see this.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[diggerdomer]

The Devil is playing you and you’re falling into his game.

Wow.

Again, wow.

I’ve never been accused of anything remotely as serious before.

Really?

You know me, and my thoughts and faith so well that you can state such a claim?

Seems dangerous to me.

I respect and admire you from your posts on this Forum, but wow. A claim like that is really offensive.

 

[JReducation]

Wow.

Again, wow.

I’ve never been accused of anything remotely as serious before.

Really?

You know me, and my thoughts and faith so well that you can state such a claim?

Seems dangerous to me.

I respect and admire you from your posts on this Forum, but wow. A claim like that is really offensive.

I’m not trying to offend you, I’m trying to warn you. There is a difference here. I’m telling you, don’t let him play this game with you. He is known to do this. I’m not sure why you’re not listening.

I do have one more piece that may help you here. The Church has never used the term “pro-choice” in her writings, because it was forbidden by Pope Paul VI. He forbade every theologian from ever using that term, because to use that term would mean that we acknowledge that there is such a thing as “choice”. The Church does not acknowledge such a choice. We have never been given the right to make this choice or the right to authorize others to make the choice. Therefore, to speak of pro-choice is to create a third group. You would have pro-abortion, pro-choice and pro-life. The Church does not recognize the existence of that middle group. One is either pro-abortion or pro-life.

In fact, the Church is very careful and deliberately uses: abortion vs. respect for the dignity of life. Under the dignity of life there is no room for choice of any kind, nor for people who allow others to make a choice.

Going back to my opening sentence, do not take my statement as an attack on you. Take it as it was meant to be, a warning. It is a warning that is based on solid Catholic Mystical Theology. It is the great lie, “if the Church has not defined it, then it must be not be in her thinking.” Wrong! That’s what he wants you to believe.

She does not define what is evident through reason, as St. Thomas Aquinas said.

I hope that helps.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[diggerdomer]

IThe Church has never used the term “pro-choice” in her writings

Thanks. That’s what I thought.

I
Going back to my opening sentence, do not take my statement as an attack on you. Take it as it was meant to be, a warning. It is a warning that is based on solid Catholic Mystical Theology. It is the great lie, “if the Church has not defined it, then it must be not be in her thinking.” Wrong! That’s what he wants you to believe.

Thanks. But still…it certainly reads as an attack or condemnation on me, personally. Read it for yourself.

Yes, of course, I’m not saying that the Church not defining “x” means "x: is ok. I never said nor suggested such.

Rather, I was responding to someone who said voting for "pro-choice: (e.g. “x”) candidates is not allowed by the Church.

So, I simply asked, and still ask, where does the Church define such?

Note: this is not saying voting for “pro-abortion” candidates!

The Church does not define what a “pro-choice” (whatever that means) candidate is. Yes or no?

The Church clearly defines abortion, but does not clearly define what a so-called “pro-choice candidate” is.

Yes, Catholics can never vote for abortion.

Whether or not Catholics can vote for a so-called “pro-choice” candidate is a much more complex and subjective consideration.

 

[lutherlic]

That’s a lie.

It in fact says in the voter guide:

Don’t vote for a pro-abortion candidate. Period.

Honestly, I don’t see how your quote conflicts with my statement - other than your own conclusion.

I am most certainly not saying to vote for any pro-abortion candidate, UNLESS the only candidates you have to choose from are all pro-abortion. Your quote then goes on to say in that case, choose on secondary issues.