Are there any Faithful Catholics voting for Pro Choice Candidates here?

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Me thinks you need to take the murder of millions of innocents more seriously.
How can you expect me to take that seriously when clearly the real issue here is typos.

I call for the immediate execution of all people who have ever looked over a typo on a blog at 11:42 PM.

Lock up these scofflaws first, than we can address the abortion issue.
 
Try to remember that while it’s important to be pro-life without excpetion, what’s more important is not to turn off people who may not agree with you. I wasn’t pro-life when I was younger- (I’m only 30, so I’m still young) and a big reason why was because pro-lifers can be mean, dogmatic, uncaring and arrogant. I’m now pro-life without exception, do work with pro-life groups, and still am amazed that many pro-lifers etiher don’t know the damage they’re doing to the cause or worse-don’t care about the damage they’re doing.

I’m not saying anyone here is acting this way, but I’m speaking to you as a convert (to the pro-life side)-be careful, because you don’t want to make it easier to sterotype all pro-lifers.
 
That’s out of line.
Perhaps Rence knows the difference between living in a world of perfection and the real world-which, is not perfect.
Yes, I do 🙂 And I also know the difference between the voting guidelines put out by the US Bishops, and a prolifer trying to bully me into voting how they want me to vote. It’s just another way to lobby. But that’s okay, it’s only part of the politics game. But I prefer to just go by the US Bishops guidelines, and notice, they don’t condemn anyone for voting for a pro-choicer. Nor do they command Catholics to vote only for pro-lifers. Rather, they have a whole list of issues that they call Catholics to consider when casting their vote. For your reading pleasure: usccb.org/bishops/FCBullInsert.pdf
Everyone saying that they could never vote for a pro-choice canidate under any circumstances means well, but really doesn’t grasp how politics works in the realy world. Thankfully, the majority of pro-lifers realize that not everything is perfect, sometimes they need to get a pro-choicer in there who is the right party so they can advance the pro-life movement through other means.
I think you do a lot more to protect life than most 🙂
 
Wow that is a really big increase on your taxes!
I thought they were ridiculously high before the increase as well. I’m glad I live where I live now because they’re nowhere near as high – at all. I’m certainly not about to vote for someone who will raise taxes or add taxes.
But yeah I agree with you there is more then one important issue. And really I think by focusing on more the one issue one would likely do better in the area of decreasing abortions then for instance ONLY focusing on the single issue of abortions. Not to mention is it really doing any good if a prolife candidate has very antilife policies? For instance Sojo mentioned a candidate who wants to get rid of maternity care but is prolife. Sure she might be prolife but how is reducing or even out right getting rid of maternity care supposed to reduce abortions? And really it is not like any prolife candidate is going to outright stop anyone from getting an abortion like you basically said people who want abortions will still get them. But perhaps with good policies on things like taxes healthcare and education less people might decide that abortion is the right choice for them.
I agree with that. In a nearby county, they decided to save money by denying prenatal care to illegal immigrants…which, in the short time this has been mandated, has raised the number of preemies staying in the NICU substanially for this group of people. Not very cost effective if you ask me…and not very pro-life either. I don’t see the point of being pro-life if you don’t care about what happens to that life after he/she is born. There are definitely more issues I consider when I vote, not just one.
 
diggerdomer,

I said: Faithful, well catechized, Catholics with properly formed consciences can vote for a pro-abortion candidate only when there are no pro-life candidates.

You replied:

I have researched and read what I can find on this and did not find anything contrary. I would honestly appreciate if you could provide a link to an official statement to the contrary and how you interpret it.

Are you saying (per USCCB) that Catholics can vote for a pro-abortion candidate over a pro-life one based on other considerations? Or, are you saying that if only pro-abortion candidates are offered that you must not vote at all?
Check this website out: faithfulcitizenship.org/

If you find it supports the claim:
Faithful, well catechized, Catholics with properly formed consciences can vote for a pro-abortion candidate only when there are no pro-life candidates.
then please let me know. I was unable to find such.

Thanks!
 
I am in the U.S., and guide my voting by what the US Bishops teach. See faithfulcitizenship.org/
Uh huh according to your subjective conscience. Faithful Citizenship and I have said this MANY times before is as clear as a white out in a Minnisota blizzard. You would be better read by taking a look at their take on living the Gospel of Life. Oh yeah, that is based on Pope John Paul IIs Evangelium Vitae.

Read what Cardinal to Be Archbishop Raymond Burke has to say about Faithful Citizenship. He is a true leader of the Church rather than conforming with his left wing "bishops’, he tells it like it is. Also since he is part of the Mystical Body of Christ, you can’t say he is only one voice. His is a true voice rather than some so called leaders who I am not allowed to mention.
 
Uh huh according to your subjective conscience. Faithful Citizenship and I have said this MANY times before is as clear as a white out in a Minnisota blizzard. You would be better read by taking a look at their take on living the Gospel of Life. Oh yeah, that is based on Pope John Paul IIs Evangelium Vitae.

Read what Cardinal to Be Archbishop Raymond Burke has to say about Faithful Citizenship. He is a true leader of the Church rather than conforming with his left wing "bishops’, he tells it like it is. Also since he is part of the Mystical Body of Christ, you can’t say he is only one voice. His is a true voice rather than some so called leaders who I am not allowed to mention.
No, not my subjective conscience. What the U.S. Bishops teach.

Minnesota, not Minnisota?

You can follow Burke if you want, ok. I’m following the Catholic Church…all Bishops…and as I am in the U.S. I also follow the teaching of the U.S. Bishops Conference (which of course are completely in line with the universal Catholic Church).
 
It it is not complex at all. The Church does not dignify the term pro-choice, because it only exists in the mind of those who support laws that allow for legal abortions.

I agree. I do not dignify the term. In fact, I think it’s a completely false, objectionable, and irrelevant term. It is meaningless, if not dangerous.
JReducation;7223413:
You’re attempt to explain and acknowledge that it is a viable position to take dignifies that which the three great religious traditions have deliberately decided is beneath them to even consider speaking about it, much less that anyone in public office has a right to such a position.
I never said nor implied it was a viable position. See above.
There are only two posiions in this discussion.
  1. Abortion is never morally justifiable and always a sin against justice. Therefore, there can never be laws that allow people to choose abortion.
Yes, abortion is intrinsically evil. Objectively wrong. Whether it’s personally a sin is a different question according to Catholic moral teaching.
If you want to know what pro-choice means, ask the person who says that he is pro-choice.
Exactly my point. What “pro-choice” means entirely depends on whom you ask.
Therefore, according to canon law, this person will be excommunicated the moment that he has to vote and he fails to vote to rescind the law.
No, this is not what Canon Law teaches.
The Church has made it very clear that revoking legal abortions is the number one priority for Catholics, even over feeding the hungry.
Oh really? Where is this definitively taught by the Magisterium?
 
A Which is why the Church teaches that in a situation where we have a candidate who supports abortion on demand running against a candidate who supports abortion only in cases of rape and incest we are allowed to vote for the latter candidate but not the former. .
Reference for such universal Catholic Church teaching? Thanks. Just curious.
 
I don’t think that was offensive at all - I’m surprised that you did.

Nonetheless, we will all stand in judgment for our decisions, which we made with free will and according to our individual faculties.

Personally, I’m more comfortable with the decision to never vote for a candidate who believes that abortion should be legal and who will vote in accordance with that belief or who will vote against appointments or legislation that might negatively affect the ability for a woman to choose and abortion.

And I happen to think that’s what the Church expects of me, in light of the fact that abortion is an intrinsic evil.

I suspect that you’re being intentionally obtuse for either sport or justification of your personal beliefs. That’s fine - it’s not really my business. We all have free will and differing abilities - mine will lead me to stand judgment for a decision that might differ from your decision.

So this discussion really hasn’t been about changing your mind (or mine), but it’s about the other people who read this thread. And I suppose that we’ve fully vetted this topic from that point of view.

Pax,
OA
Abortion is not the only intrinsic evil. Catholics should consider ALL intrinsic evils, as well as ALL moral teachings of the Catholic Church when making political decisions. Catholics are not single issue voters.

Do you think abortion is the only intrinsic evil taught by the Catholic Church? Can you name any others?
 
I am in the U.S., and guide my voting by what the US Bishops teach. See faithfulcitizenship.org/
Check this website out: faithfulcitizenship.org/

If you find it supports the claim:

then please let me know. I was unable to find such.

Thanks!
Digger that is because you read only what you want to read and hear what you want to hear. Try reading the letters of traditional Bishops like Finn, Burke, Martino, Hermann, Carlson, the Bishops of Dallas Ft. Worth, those of Kansas and Nebraska who wrote very clearly agains voting for a pro death party during the POTUS elections and you will get a different picture from the one you see given by progressive Bishops who try to obscure the truth. For what reason, I don’t know.

Hopefully one day they will wake up and realize what they have done to our Catholic Faith through their silence and obfuscation.
 
Yes, I do 🙂 And I also know the difference between the voting guidelines put out by the US Bishops, and a prolifer trying to bully me into voting how they want me to vote. It’s just another way to lobby. But that’s okay, it’s only part of the politics game. But I prefer to just go by the US Bishops guidelines, and notice, they don’t condemn anyone for voting for a pro-choicer. Nor do they command Catholics to vote only for pro-lifers. Rather, they have a whole list of issues that they call Catholics to consider when casting their vote. For your reading pleasure: usccb.org/bishops/FCBullInsert.pdf

I think you do a lot more to protect life than most 🙂
Now I understand. You aren’t pro life conception to natural death like us stealthy Pro Lifers are.
 
Yes, I do 🙂 And I also know the difference between the voting guidelines put out by the US Bishops, and a prolifer trying to bully me into voting how they want me to vote. It’s just another way to lobby. But that’s okay, it’s only part of the politics game. But I prefer to just go by the US Bishops guidelines, and notice, they don’t condemn anyone for voting for a pro-choicer.That is their biggest weakness. We will not have a Culture of Life in Society until the Bishops who have said nothing, either retire or open their mouths and clarify for those who do not understand moral law just what a well formed concscience is. Nor do they comand Catholics to vote only for pro-lifers. Rather, they have a whole list of issues that they call Catholics to consider when casting their vote. For your reading pleasure: usccb.org/bishops/FCBullInsert.pdf

I think you do a lot more to protect life than most 🙂
I am in the U.S., and guide my voting by what the US Bishops teach. See faithfulcitizenship.org/
You go by the “bishops” guidlines because they are thinking as progressives think. Obfuscate, don’t believe in Absolutes, hip hip hurrah for relativism.

This is a partial re print of what they say in Living the Gospel of Life. Do they come out and say no, no digger you can’t vote for the pro death party. They are banking, naively, on each of us having a truly moral Catholic conscience. Try reading between the lines. It might help you.

32.We urge those Catholic officials who choose to depart from Church teaching on the inviolability of human life in their public life to consider the consequences for their own spiritual well being, as well as the scandal they risk by leading others into serious sin. We call on them to reflect on the grave contradiction of assuming public roles and presenting themselves as credible Catholics when their actions on fundamental issues of human life are not in agreement with Church teaching. No public official, especially one claiming to be a faithful and serious Catholic, can responsibly advocate for or actively support direct attacks on innocent human life. I do believe this holds also for Catholics in general. Certainly there are times when it may be impossible to overturn or prevent passage of a law which allows or promotes a moral evil – such as a law allowing the destruction of nascent human life. In such cases, an elected official, whose position in favor of life is known, could seek legitimately to limit the harm done by the law. However, no appeal to policy, procedure, majority will or pluralism ever excuses a public official from defending life to the greatest extent possible. Do you think this holds true ONLY for public officials? What about the voters who vote for them. As is true of leaders in all walks of life, no political leader can evade accountability for his or her exercise of power (Evangelium Vitae, 73-4). Those who justify their inaction on the grounds that abortion is the law of the land need to recognize that there is a higher law, the law of God. No human law can validly contradict the Commandment: "Thou shalt not kill."33.The Gospel of Life must be proclaimed, and human life defended, in all places and all times. The arena for moral responsibility includes not only the halls of government, but the voting booth as well. Laws that permit abortion, euthanasia and assisted suicide are profoundly unjust, and we should work peacefully and tirelessly to oppose and change them. Because they are unjust they cannot bind citizens in conscience, be supported, acquiesced in, or recognized as valid. Our nation cannot countenance the continued existence in our society of such fundamental violations of human rights.

Let us be neither dogs that do not bark nor silent onlookers nor paid servants who run away before the wolf. Instead, let us be careful shepherds watching over Christ’s flock. Let us preach the whole of God’s plan to the powerful and the humble, to rich and to poor, to men of every rank and age, as far as God gives us the strength, in season and out of season, as St. Gregory writes in his book of Pastoral Instruction.10

34.We encourage all citizens, particularly Catholics, to embrace their citizenship not merely as a duty and privilege, but as an opportunity meaningfully to participate in building the culture of life. Every voice matters in the public forum. Every vote counts. Every act of responsible citizenship is an exercise of significant individual power. We must exercise that power in ways that defend human life, especially those of God’s children who are unborn, disabled or otherwise vulnerable. We get the public officials we deserve. Their virtue – or lack thereof – is a judgment not only on them, but on us. Because of this, we urge our fellow citizens to see beyond party politics, to analyze campaign rhetoric critically, and to choose their political leaders according to principle, not party affiliation or mere self-interest.

Hope this was self explanatory.
 
Digger that is because you read only what you want to read and hear what you want to hear. Try reading the letters of traditional Bishops like Finn, Burke, Martino, Hermann, Carlson, the Bishops of Dallas Ft. Worth, those of Kansas and Nebraska who wrote very clearly agains voting for a pro death party during the POTUS elections and you will get a different picture from the one you see given by progressive Bishops who try to obscure the truth. For what reason, I don’t know.

Hopefully one day they will wake up and realize what they have done to our Catholic Faith through their silence and obfuscation.
As I said, I don’t follow individual Bishops, I follow the universal Catholic Church, and as I am in the U.S. also the teachings of the US Bishops’ conference. If you or others prefer individual Bishops apart from the Magisterium, that’s fine, just not my choice as a Catholic. I believe all Bishops are successors to the Apostles, not just some.

Also, your post completely did not answer my question.
 
Farewell to this thread; it seems that posting on this thread has become counterproductive with the posters here. Thanks to all those loyal promoters of pro-life issues and Catholic values. Unfortunately, those posters who continue to herald their opposition to the Church’s teachings on this subject for their own political reasons are not apt to convert and further postings seem to be doing nothing but further alienating them. I believe all the arguments stressing the correctness and meaning of Church teaching have been stated over and over again. The pro-abortion element on this thread continues to insist on taking one or two sentences from the bishop’s statements out of context and mis-interpreting them to support their pro-abortion stance.

It is sad; our culture has become so hardened to the violence and injustice in our society that many do not even see the obvious. It is akin to a snowball going downhill. Our selfishness causes us to take small steps against morality (which seems to have started with the sexual revolution of the sixties) until we have totally transformed our culture into one of hardness of heart toward our most vulnerable; the unborn, those with birth defects, the sick and elderly, and soon to be, the unproductive.

Every time we get close to discussing the real issues of the murder of the unborn or euphanasia the pro-abortion posters turn the subject to grammar, social issues other than the subject of this thread, or light heartedly begin changing the subject with humor, friendship, or anything else to avoid the real issue.

On the brighter side, our efforts are producing fruit in the over all battle. Many pro-life candidates were elected last night in many local, state, and federal offices. People who call themselves pro-life are on the increase; especially among the younger generations.The general population is now well over 50% pro-life.

God Bless you all.
 
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