Are there any good Carmelite Friars around?

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I’m not per se looking to become one as I have applied to the diocese (an application for which prayers are much needed and appreciated), but it is something that I had thought of in the past and who knows if God does intend to lead me there eventually.

In any case, I was poking around on youtube tonight to relax and decided to look up videos of carmeliet friars, and in every single video I came across, there was about 10 times as much footage of these guys in street clothes as in their habits. It honestly looked like somebody’s vacation photos/videos at times. Now I don’t intend to judge whatever orders these men are from solely based upon something like this, but needless to say it does not inspire confidence.

Is this common amongst the Carmelite friars? Is there one particular group that this is true of, or not? I know that there was a Carmelite bishop on a program on EWTN last year who seemed pretty solid.

I’m aware of the monks out in Wyoming, but as someone who thinks Carmelites are prettty important to the Church, I’m curious if anyone knows anything more.

Peace, and God bless
 
I’m not per se looking to become one as I have applied to the diocese (an application for which prayers are much needed and appreciated), but it is something that I had thought of in the past and who knows if God does intend to lead me there eventually.

In any case, I was poking around on youtube tonight to relax and decided to look up videos of carmeliet friars, and in every single video I came across, there was about 10 times as much footage of these guys in street clothes as in their habits. It honestly looked like somebody’s vacation photos/videos at times. Now I don’t intend to judge whatever orders these men are from solely based upon something like this, but needless to say it does not inspire confidence.

Is this common amongst the Carmelite friars? Is there one particular group that this is true of, or not? I know that there was a Carmelite bishop on a program on EWTN last year who seemed pretty solid.

I’m aware of the monks out in Wyoming, but as someone who thinks Carmelites are prettty important to the Church, I’m curious if anyone knows anything more.

Peace, and God bless
Yes we do exist and the wearing of the habit 24/7 does not make one a friar.

The monks out in Wyoming are not affiliated with either the O.Carm. or the OCD, they are under their local bishop. They have also modified traditional Carmelite habit.

I am sorry but it seems that with this post you are saying that a friar who does not wear his habit 24/7 is not a “good” friar.

I hope that is not what you meant.
 
I’m not per se looking to become one as I have applied to the diocese (an application for which prayers are much needed and appreciated), but it is something that I had thought of in the past and who knows if God does intend to lead me there eventually.

In any case, I was poking around on youtube tonight to relax and decided to look up videos of carmeliet friars, and in every single video I came across, there was about 10 times as much footage of these guys in street clothes as in their habits. It honestly looked like somebody’s vacation photos/videos at times. Now I don’t intend to judge whatever orders these men are from solely based upon something like this, but needless to say it does not inspire confidence.

Is this common amongst the Carmelite friars? Is there one particular group that this is true of, or not? I know that there was a Carmelite bishop on a program on EWTN last year who seemed pretty solid.

I’m aware of the monks out in Wyoming, but as someone who thinks Carmelites are prettty important to the Church, I’m curious if anyone knows anything more.

Peace, and God bless
BzyCath will probably be able to answer your questions better then I, but for what it is worth there is some Carmelite nuns in Dallas that follow the 1990 Constitution that have some great Carmelite friars that hear their confessions and stuff. Are they part of the Southern Province? Is that what they call it? Hmm… I don’t know, but I know there are good friars are out there - that are “solid”. I don’t know if they wear the habit all the time, but I know when it comes to the Church they are solid. God bless!
 
I’m not per se looking to become one as I have applied to the diocese (an application for which prayers are much needed and appreciated), but it is something that I had thought of in the past and who knows if God does intend to lead me there eventually.

In any case, I was poking around on youtube tonight to relax and decided to look up videos of carmeliet friars, and in every single video I came across, there was about 10 times as much footage of these guys in street clothes as in their habits. It honestly looked like somebody’s vacation photos/videos at times. Now I don’t intend to judge whatever orders these men are from solely based upon something like this, but needless to say it does not inspire confidence.

Is this common amongst the Carmelite friars? Is there one particular group that this is true of, or not? I know that there was a Carmelite bishop on a program on EWTN last year who seemed pretty solid.

I’m aware of the monks out in Wyoming, but as someone who thinks Carmelites are prettty important to the Church, I’m curious if anyone knows anything more.

Peace, and God bless
Remember, there are two Carmelite Orders: Order of Carmel (O. Carm.) and Discalced Carmelites (O.C.D., the Reform of St. Teresa of Jesus). I’m far more familiar with the latter and I can’t remember ever seeing any of these excellent priests and brothers in anything but their brown robes.

Friars of the Province of St. Joseph (Western Province, U.S.):
discalcedcarmelites.com/contact_us.html

Friars of the Province of the Immaculate Heart of Mary (Washington, D.C.):
ocdwashprov.com/

There are also the Friars of the Oklahoma Province, but their link isn’t working at the moment.

God bless you in your vocation!
 
I don’t think that wearing of the habit 24/7 necessarily determines whether or not one is a good friar, but it is something that I consider very important. A religious is one who has quite literally left the world. More than merely surrendering personal goods and living in a spiritual community, a religious has in some mystical way actually ceased to be a part of the world in any way whatever, and thus when one becomes a religious they are said to have “entered religion.”

The habit of the religious is deeply connected to this. It is a symbol to the world that this person is set apart, but it goes even beyond this. The habit is a symbol even to the religious him or herself. It is tied to the very identity of the religious. One is a religious 24/7, and no longer holds any part in the world, and so wearing of the habit less than that without good cause ought not to be done.

For the purposes of illustration, conside the clerical garb of diocesan priests. It represents their very identity as priests of Christ. One ought to be wearing it at all times, for it identifies them not only to the people as a servant of God, but also to themselves. A priest is not merely a man who works for the Church. He is not merely a man who lives a life dedicated to God. He is a priest. His very identity is that of priest. It has been said diocesan priest who does not wear his clerical garb when he ought to is a diocesan priest with an identity crisis. He has a problem with his identity as priest. He wants to be a priest, for sure, but perhaps not 24/7. On his days off, perhaps he does not want to be a priest, but a regular fellow relaxing. However he is not this. He is a priest taking time off from his ministry for the sake of “recharging.”

Now I happen to know a priest that goes around an awful lot in the clothes of laypersons. He is a good priest, in many ways. In some ways he is a very good priest. Nevertheless, he is also a priest who reminds me in many ways of the saying that a priest who does not wear his clerics is one with an identity crisis. He seems somewhat uncomfortable with the notion of simply being a priest. He enjoys his priestly ministry, and he is very giving in it, but it is also something that he seems to view as less than a full time ontological reality. In many ways he seems to think of it as though he does priestly things rather than actually being a priest.

If this is the case for diocesan priests, all the more for religious. The identiy of a religious is radically more distinct from that of a lay person than a diocesan priest, to the point that religious very often take even new names upon entering religion. When I see a religious not wearing his or her habit, I see a religious who in some way does not wish to be completely removed from the world. I don’t want to make it seem as though I am saying that such religious are necessarily bad or lax, or to overstate what I mean. I just mean that in some way, a religious who does not wear his habit a great deal of the time seems to have some problem with actually being a religious, full time, 24/7, and all that that entails.

Now as I said, there are good causes for a religious not to be in his habit. Most religious that I know of do not wear their habits to bed, which would be a bit cumbersome. Religious sometimes recreate athletically, and it seems reasonable and even healthy that one would dress appropriately for doing so. Religious may participate in manual labor, and so may choose not to wearh their habit for safety, keeping the habit clean, or some other reason (on the other hand, I have seen many orders which wear their habits through their periods of work, and I do believe that this has something very special about it). There are other reasons.

Yet when I watched these videos, I saw Carmelite friars studying, walking about the community, eating, even praying and attending national conferences of the order without a habit in sight. To me, if a habit is not going to be worn at these times, what is the point of the habit at all? I am especially stunned that at a national conference there would be no habits. Truth be told, most of the few times I saw habits were during Liturgical services. I want to stress when I say “few.” I happen to work in a rectory, and so I see the two diocesan priests there at many times throughout their days. One of them wears his clerics all of the time unless he is going to bed or going to exercise. The other walks around somewhat frequently in street clothes too often for my liking, but still only a minority of the time. Yet when I watched these videos, I saw the habits a marked minority of the time.

I also want to point out the nature of the videos. Some of these were videos aimed at recruiting vocations, or advertising the Carmelites to men. It really troubles me a great deal that in such videos, they would choose to show the friars in street clothes the vast majority of the time. Just what are they trying to advertise? To enter religion is to leave the world and give oneself totally to God living out the evangelical counsels in accord with the particular rule of life and charism of a particular religious order. Yet I saw virtually none of that. I saw nothing about way of life, nothing about a rule of life, nothing about the charism of the Carmelites - a scant few mentions of prayer, which is that around which the Carmelites are built! - and nothing to indicate that these men were seperate from the world. As I said, it looked at many times like videos from somebody’s vacation, or better yet, family reunion.

I want to focus on this point for a moment. The videos seem to be advertising that aspect of religion very well - the community. The videos really do look like a family reunion, which is good to the degree that religion entails becoming an intimate family of brothers (or sisters). However, community is only one of many parts of the religious life, and apart from the other parts - of which I saw almost nothing in these videos - it is meaningless. Where are the evangelical counsels? Where is prayer, the charism of the Carmelites? Where is that which makes me see these persons as not living as a part of the world?

Several popes have stressed the importance of the habit, and have encouraged religious to wear their habit. John Paul II wrote that, “Since the habit is a sign of consecration, poverty and membership in a particular Religious family, I join the Fathers of the Synod in strongly recommending to men and women religious that they wear their proper habit, suitably adapted to the conditions of time and place.”

But I don’t want to get into a bunch of law here. My point is simply that it troubles me to see the order being presented as though the habit is something which is worn rarely, and indeed for it to be worn only rarely. I do not contend it ought to be worn literally 24/7, but it truly ought to be worn most of the time.

Peace, and God bless
 
I found this on an OCD website, and I think I largely agree with it, if it helps to clarify (though I would like to think I would endure my habit in a swealtering summer for pennance if I were to be an OCD - personal preference I suppose):
In the Washington Province, as our chapter indicated, we wear the habit especially for our liturgical celebrations and apostolates—for example, when going out to preach, give retreats, or hear confessions, or on any other occasion where we are functioning publicly as Carmelites. At times our priests may substitute the Roman collar. On the other hand, we would not ordinarily wear the habit when doing heavy manual work (like the muddy brother), playing sports, and for other activities where it would likely get soiled or damaged. Those involved in our publications ministry here in Washington might wear teeshirt and shorts when working alone in front of their computers during our sweltering summers. The friars who staff our Marian Shrine at Holy Hill, on the other hand, often spend the whole day in their habits since they are dealing constantly with visiting pilgrims. This partly explains the variety of clothing you may have noticed in the vocation newsletter photos.
 
You are entitled to your view of the habit but I do not think it is proper that you place that view upon others.

Again, the habit does not make the religious, the religious makes the habit.

In my province of the Carmelites, the Pure Heart of Mary, there is no rule as to when one should or should not wear the habit. We are free to chose on our own. I chose to wear it when I am ministering or when I am attending liturgical functions.

I am sorry if that does not meet your criteria of a “good” friar. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

And I shall add one final note. As a vowed religious, in general, and a Carmelite, in particular, I find this post very offensive.
 
You are entitled to your view of the habit but I do not think it is proper that you place that view upon others.

Again, the habit does not make the religious, the religious makes the habit.

In my province of the Carmelites, the Pure Heart of Mary, there is no rule as to when one should or should not wear the habit. We are free to chose on our own. I chose to wear it when I am ministering or when I am attending liturgical functions.

I am sorry if that does not meet your criteria of a “good” friar. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

And I shall add one final note. As a vowed religious, in general, and a Carmelite, in particular, I find this post very offensive.
Byzcath,

I am sorry that you take offense at my thoughts. I do not intend them to denigrate those religious who do not wear a habit more frequently, but I do believe that there is an objective reality to the importance of the religious habit and the importance of the frequency with which it is worn. It symbolizes a great deal, and to refrain from wearing it cannot help but call into question the dedication one has to that which it symbolizes. Perhaps I am not explaining it well, but I would highly encourage you to read the article presented here, of which it was said by one who knew them well that “it is completely conformed to the doctrine and wishes of Popes Paul VI and John Paul II.”

I hope you will consider in particular my comments about the videos. When I see not only one, but several videos put together to advertise a religious order which exhibit virtually nothing of the order’s consecration to Christ, I cannot help but question the dedication of those involved. The very purpose of being a religious is to be consecrated in a radical way to Christ. Why would one choosing to promote such an order and yet not present any impression that the men involved truly are consecrated to Christ in a deep and particulalr way? Why would a video promoting Carmelites not mention prayer until the very end, and then only briefly mention it, as in passing?

Were I a religious, and a Carmelite in particular, I would be deeply saddened and perhaps offended to see such a video being presented as representative of my life and my dedication to Christ.

Would John of the Cross have removed his habit when he was not at Mass? Would any of the Carmelite saints have one this? I am sorry for your feelings, but I believe that John would be scandalized and appalled to see his friars praying in lay attire, or gathering for a chapter without their habits, or anything of that sort.

Are you consecrated to God only during your ministry and during your Liturgical services? Certainly not! Why, then, wear the sign of that consecration only during those times? Would this not be like a layman invested in the Scapular of Our Lady of Mount Carmel choosing only to wear it during prayer and to Mass? Or perhaps even more appropriately, would this not be as if a married man wore his wedding ring only while with his wife? I do not ask to condemn you or anyone, but to try to understand your choice, as I cannot comprehend it. Were I to be so blessed as to be specially consecrated to God, to be given the opportunity to spend my entire life doing nothing other than praying, ministering, and in other ways directly serving the Lord, I would not for a moment remove the sign of that consecration, which identifies me as belonging totally to the Lord. It would be my inner identity, and while that inner identity takes primacy, my outer appearence ought to reflect that inner identity, letting it shine as a lamp on a stand.

Peace, and God bless
 
Just an observation. Perhaps the men could shed some light on why this possibly is.

I have noticed too that priests/brothers have a tendency more so to not wear the collar/habit consistenly. Women religious either tend to wear the habit or to not wear the habit. While I have seen priests who wear the collar sometimes but then I run into them at the store and they are not in a collar. Then the Dominican priests in my diocese only wear the habit on major feast days and just for the Mass on the feast day. Wonder why this consistency in either decision is not so common with the men?

If it were for practical reasons then wouldn’t these reasons apply to women religious, but I either see them in the habit or I don’t. I have known of one religious sister who wore the habit in a non-consistent manner (and she is very holy in my mind), but she did this because the priest where she works does not like her wearing the habit and told her not to. I have never known another religious sister/nun to be inconsistent in their wearing of the habit.

Am I mistaken in this observation?
 
Byzcath,

Or perhaps even more appropriately, would this not be as if a married man wore his wedding ring only while with his wife?
When a married person does not wear or removes the wedding ring, the sign of his or her state, it is for a reason. The person does not want to be recognized as a married person. When a priest or religious goes deliberately incognito out in public it is for the same reason. They do not want to be recognized or identified as priests or religious.
 
It seems that some people wish to judge others that do not live up to some standard that they have arbitrarily set.

The Rule of St Albert does not speak of a habit and out constitutions do not lay out when the habit needs to be worn.

A friar is free to do as his conscience dictates. There are some that where it more than others, some less. I do not judge these people.

As for the wedding band issue. That is apples and oranges. Marriage is a sacrament, profession of vows is not. In the Byzantine rite the husband and wife are crowned during the service as a sign of their marriage yet they never wear them again.
When a married person does not wear or removes the wedding ring, the sign of his or her state, it is for a reason. The person does not want to be recognized as a married person.
As for this comment, it is a gross over generalization. I know of many instances where the removal of a wedding band is necessary and not done to hide that one is married.
When a priest or religious goes deliberately incognito out in public it is for the same reason. They do not want to be recognized or identified as priests or religious.
Same here as above.

But as I said, wedding bands and habits are totally different issues.

Again, this is nothing more that others judging others when they really have no right to do so.

The wearing of a habit does not make one a good religious, to think so is very naive and insulting.

This will be my last comment on this matter.
 
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