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Berean
Guest
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Berean
Guest
Sarah Jane:
Way before then Sarah! It was before the term “Protestant” was invented by the Roman Church. Protestant does not offend me but I am not one of them. I am a Messianic believer in Yeshua and trust me there is a lot to learn about Christianity that Rome does not teach.
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Sarah_Jane
Guest
St. Paul speaks Greek.
"Item: “Bible forbidden to laymen, placed on the Index of Forbidden Books by the Council of Valencia . . . [A.D.] 1229.”
This looks rather damaging, but Boettner has his history completely wrong. The first thing to note is that the Index of Forbidden Books was established in 1559, so a council held in 1229 could hardly have listed a book on it.
The second point is that there apparently has never been any Church council in Valencia, Spain. If there had been one, it could not have taken place in 1229 because Muslim Moors then controlled the city. It is inconceivable that Muslims, who were at war with Spanish Christians, and had been off and on for five centuries, would allow Catholic bishops to hold a council in one of their cities. The Christian armies did not liberate Valencia from Moorish rule until nine years later, 1238. So Valencia is out.
But there is another possibility, and that is Toulouse, France, where a council was held in 1229. And, yes, that council dealt with the Bible. It was organized in reaction to the Albigensian or Catharist heresy, which held that there are two gods and that marriage is evil because all matter (and thus physical flesh) is evil. From this the heretics concluded that fornication could be no sin, and they even encouraged suicide among their members. In order to promulgate their sect, the Albigensians published an inaccurate translation of the Bible in the vernacular language (rather like the Jehovah’s Witnesses of today publishing their severely flawed New World Translation of the Bible, which has been deliberately mistranslated to support the sect’s claims). Had it been an accurate translation, the Church would not have been concerned. Vernacular versions had been appearing for centuries. But what came from the hands of the Albigensians was an adulterated Bible. The bishops at Toulouse forbade the reading of it because it was inaccurate. In this they were caring for their flocks, just as a Protestant minister of today might tell his flock not to read the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ New World Translation."
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DominvsVobiscvm
Guest
Oh, great . . .
Another “do-it-yourself, re-invent -the-wheel” Protestant?
Which church do you belong to, pray tell? Where may I go to worship with you and your kind?
Did your “church” exist even 100 years ago?
Do, pray tell, what were the names of these “true Christians” persecuted by the Catholic Church? I’m assuming that you identify with these Christians. Who were they, and would any reputable historian agree with your claim that yo udescend from them?
Thanx.
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Berean
Guest
Sarah Jane:
Sarah try this site for some recent persecution. moriel.org/discernment/catholicism/christian_persecution.htm
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mercygate
Guest
Berean, do you have a link to Pope John Paul’s call for Catholics to rise up against Protestants? If he said it during his Mexican tour, it must be recorded somewhere besides the Moriel web page.
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Sarah_Jane
Guest
This informations are not very documented.
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Sarah_Jane
Guest
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DominvsVobiscvm
Guest
Berean:
What about getting serious and answering my questions?
You’re playing with the big boys now . . .
What about getting serious and answering my questions?
You’re playing with the big boys now . . .
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Sarah_Jane
Guest
This informations are not very documented…
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RBushlow
Guest
DominvsVobiscvm:
Berean, Please be accurate. Many of use are not Roman rite. Some are Byzantine, others Maronite, still others Meklite. The correct term is the Catholic Church. You are also in error in stating that we answer to Rome. Every Catholic answers to God.The head of the Catholic Church is Jesus Christ, it’s founder. It is He who built His Church on Peter and gave Peter the Keys to the Kingdom. It is He who send the Holy Spirit to guide the Church leadership from Peter down to the present day.
I ask you this, please say the following prayer: “Come Holy Spirit, enlighten me and give me eyes to see and ears to hear. Guide me to the fullness of Truth and bring me into the Church which Jesus Christ founded. I pray this in the name of the same Jesus Christ our Lord. Ahmen.”
May God bless and guide you in your quest for the Truth of Jesus Christ.
Your brother in Christ.
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Berean
Guest
Thank you for the prayer it was great. You are right we are brothers in Christ. I could never return to the Catholic Church because of the many differences I hold with it. Bottom line is that we have Christ in Common if nothing else.
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Berean
Guest
Please pose your question again as I did not get it.Berean:
What about getting serious and answering my questions?
You’re playing with the big boys now . . .
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Fr_Ambrose
Guest
“In Rome, on the other hand, the Celtic anomalies were considered full fledged heresy into the seventeenth century, when Caesar Cardinal Baronius, Vatican Librarian, in describing the work of Augustine’s succesor Lawrence, tells how the latter,“laboured with might and main for the purpose of extricating the Britons and the Scots from their schism and reconciling them to the Catholic Church”(79)”
p. 288
Neuman, Carol, The Northumbrian Renaissance, Associated University Presses, N.J., 1987, ISBN: 0-941664-11-2
"Elsewhere, however, matters were not so benignly worked out. Saint Theodore of Tarsus, on his arrival in 669, found it necesarry to use forceful measures to quell the remnants of the Celtic heresy. Despite the direct and immediate effects of Whitby on the central Celtic house at Lindisfarne, it may be remembered that the Picts and Scots, including at this point the Columban motherhouse at Iona, remained unwilling to accept Roman orthodoxy. Saint Theodore’s ‘Penitential’ clearly announced his views on the issues. (74) He recognised neither episcopal consecration nor baptism as performed by the Celtic Church. Eddius tells us that he insisted on reconsecrating Chad, “through every episcopal grade,” and demanded the rebaptism of converts of the Celtic Church.(75) He also ordered a year’s penance for anyone recieving communion from Celtic clerics.
“The hostility along the Welsh and Cornish borders was
apparently mutual. Aldhelm of Malmsbury wrote that the Welsh bishops concidered the clergy of Rome to be excommunicated until they should individually perform forty days penance, and refused to pray with them or join them at meals. The leftovers of food touched by Roman clerics were ordered thrown to swine so that Celtic Christians would not suffer spiritual contagion. Their vessels were to be purified with fire or sand, and they were to receive neither saluation nor the kiss of peace(76) Apparently the British had not forgot the lessons of St. Augustine’s Oak.”
“I have perfumed my bed with myrrh, aloes and cinnamon.” ~Proverbs 7:17
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Berean
Guest
The Church I attend is a model of the first century Church. Honestly look at these canons and then tell me The Roman Catholic Church is the same Church as the Jerusalem Church. Lets just see who reinvented the wheel, and I am not a Protestant. Remeber Yeshua was Jewish, not Protestant, not Catholic, not Roman, but Jewish. He started learning the Torah at 5 years old just like every Jewish boy. Put down your Roman Catholic pride for just one minute and see what has been added to the Church Jesus established.
These are some Roman Catholic Doctrines and Practices Contradicted by the bible. None of them in the First Century Church. 1. THE MASS
(a) A sacrifice for sins, ‘vs.’-Heb. 10:11-17, 7:27; Rom. 6:9-10; Heb. 9:11-12, 22-28; I Pet. 3:18.
(b) Eating and drinking the literal body and blood of Christ. ‘vs.’ Mt. 24:23; Ex. 20:13; Acts 15:20; Is. 44:14-20; Acts 17:24-25, 19:26; Jn. 10:9, 15:5, 6:63; Jer. 15:16. 2. CELIBACY
Priests and nuns vow never to marry ‘vs.’ I Tim… 3:2-6, 3:12, 4:1-3; Mt. 8:14; I Cor.9:5; Eph. 5:31-32; Acts 21:8-9.
3. MARY, QUEEN OF HEAVEN
Jer. 7:18, 44:17, 25.
MARY, MEDIATRIX - I Tim. 3:5; Mt.11:28; Jn. 14:13-14; I Ki. 8:39; II Chr. 6:30; Ecc. 9:6.
MARY, SINLESS - Lk. 1:46-47, 2:22-24 (a ‘sin sacrifice’); Rom. 3:23, 3:10-19. MARY, EVER VIRGIN - Mt. 1:25, 13:55-56, 12:46; Mk. 6:3; Jn. 2:12; Acts: 1:14; Mk. 3:31. MARY, WORSHIP - Rom. 1:25; Is. 42:8; Lk. 2:48-49; Mk. 3:31-33; Jn. 2:2-4, 7:10. MARY, CO-REDEMPTRIX - Acts 4:12; Jn. 14:6; Rom. 5:17; I Jn. 2:1-2; Heb. 7:25; Jn. 10:1, 9; Ps.146:5, 71:5; Jer. 17:7; Joel. 3:16; I Tim. 1:1; Col. 1:27; I Pet. 1:21; Heb. 7:25. MARY, MOTHER OF GOD – Mt. 12:46-50; Mk. 8: 19-21; Acts 1:14; Jn. 2:3-4. 4. PETER, THE ROCK
‘vs.’ God, Christ the Rock … Dt. 32:3, 4, 15, 18, 31; I Sam. 2:2; II Sam. 22:47; Ps. 18:31, 28:1, 62:2, 94:22; Mt. 16:23; I Cor. 10:4; I Pet. 2:6-8; I Cor. 3:11; Acts 4:12., Eph. 2:20; Mt. 21:42.
5. NO MEAT ON FRIDAY, LENT, FAST DAYS, ETC.
‘vs.’ I Tim. 4:1-3; Gal. 4:9-11; Col. 2:20-22.
6. AURICULAR CONFESSION
‘vs.’ Ps. 32:5; Rev. 14:12; Lk. 18:14; Is. 55:7; Acts 8:22; Ezra 10:11; I Jn. 1:9; Ps. 32:5; I Tim. 2:5; I Jn. 2:1-2.
7. PURGATORY
‘vs.’ I Jn. 1:7; Heb. 1:1-3; Jn. 14:1-6; Rom. 8:38; II Tim.1:12; II Cor.5:8; Lk.23:43; Rev. 5.:91
8. ROSARY
''vs. 'Mt. 6:7.
9. SALVATION BY MERIT, WORKS, SACRAMENTS, WATER BAPTISM
‘vs.’ Eph. 2:8-9; Rom.10:9-13; Jn. 3:16, 3:36, 5:24; Acts 16:31; II Jn. 5:10-13; Gal. 2:16; Rom. 3:27, 4:2, 4:6, 11:6; Gal. 2:16, 3:2, 3:5, 3:10; Titus 3:4-7; Gal. 3:24-25; I Pet. 1:18-23.
10. ADDRESSING A PRIEST AS “FATHER”
‘vs’.'Mt. 23:9.
11. MIRACULOUS MEDALS, SCAPULARS, CRUCIFIXES, IMAGES, BLEEDING HEARTS, ETC.
vs.’ Ex. 20:4-5; Dt. 4:16; Is. 42:8, 44:9; Lev. 26:1; Dt. 4:23.
12. POPE AS “HEAD OF THE CHURCH”
‘vs.’ Eph.5:23; Col.1:18; Gal.2:11; II Cor 11:5, 12:11, 11:28; Lk. 22:24; Mt 20:25-27; Acts l5:13-19; II Thess.2:3, 2:4, 2:9-12; I Jn. 2:18: Rev. 13:18.
13. TRADITION
‘vs.’ Mt. 15:3; Mk. 7:7-8; Col, 3:8.
14. PRAYERS FOR THE DEAD
‘vs.’ II Cor. 6:2; Jn. 3:18, 3:36; Prov. 29:1; Jer. 7:16.
15. PRIESTS
‘vs.’ Heb. 8:4; Eph. 4:11; Heb. 4:14-15, 7:26, 8:1; Mt. 24:4-5, 23-24; 23:9-23.
16. NEGLECT OF INDIVIDUAL SCRIPTURES STUDY AND INTERPRETATION AND OBEDIENCE THERETO, AS THE SOLE RULE OF FAITH
‘vs.’ Isa. 8:20; Dt. 17:19; Josh. 1:8; Isa. 34:16; Jn. 5:39; Acts 17:11; II Tim. 2:15; Rom. 15:4; Ps. 119:11, 103; II Tim. 3:15-16; Col. 3:16; Ps. 119:105, 130, 72, 97.140; Jer. 15:16; Eph. 6:17; Heb. 4:12; Ps. 119:9 Jn. 15:3, 17:17, 20:31; Dt. 11:19; II Chr. 17:9; Mt. 22:29; Isa. 30:9; Hos. 4:6; Amos 2:4; Mk. 7:9; Rev. 22:18-19.
If you took the time to go through just some of these you would see that these practices were added. I know you think the Church has the authority to add what ever they want but I don’t. This does not mean that don’t share Yeshua as Savior does it?
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Berean
Guest
Sarah Jane:
In the Council of Toulouse, the church leaders ruled: “We prohibit layman possessing copies of the Old and New Testament…We forbid most severely to have the above books in the popular vernacular.” “The Lords of the districts shall carefully seek out heretics in dwellings, hovels, and forests, and even their underground retreats shall be entirely wiped out.” COUNCIL TOLOSANUM, Pope Gregory lX, Anno. Chr. 1229.
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RobedWithLight
Guest
Of course there are none.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the caller is a believer in the Baptist successionism theory, a belief that there were “underground” or hidden groups of Christians which rejected the “institutional” Church of Rome for having become corrupt sometime in the 4th century, and secretely existed side by side with the Catholic Church, only reemerging in the wake of the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century. This is a flawed theory with no historical foundations whatsoever.
This topic that has been discussed here in various threads.
Gerry
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mayra_hart
Guest
i found this article very interesting about st peter. iam only are going to copy some of it if you want to read more go to [
The Roman Catholic Church claims that Peter was the bishop of the church at Rome and that he held the position as the first Pope. It is important to point out that that St. Peter held the position as the first Pope, and the was the position of Bishop of Rome, disproving one does not disprove the other. For even if Mr. Cloud could disprove [which he does not] that St. Peter was the Bishop of Rome, this does not disprove the scriptural fact that St. Peter was the Chief Apostle. The biblical Petrine data is quite strong, and is inescapably compelling by virtue of its cumulative weight, even when looking at the King James Bible, the most well known Protestant Bible. St. Peter’s name occurs first in all lists of apostles (see Mt 10:2; Mk 3:16; Lk 6:14; Acts 1:13). Matthew even calls him “the first” (10:2). (Judas Iscariot is invariably mentioned last.). St. Peter is almost without exception named first whenever he appears with anyone else. St. Peter is often spoken of as distinct among apostles (Mk 1:36; Lk 9:28,32; Acts 2:37; 5:29; 1 Cor 9:5).St. Peter is often spokesman for the other apostles, especially at climactic moments (Mk 8:29; Mt 18:21; Lk 9:5; 12:41; Jn 6:67).St. Peter’s name is always the first listed of the “inner circle” of the disciples (Peter, James and John - Mt 17:1; 26:37,40; Mk 5:37; 14:37).St. Peter’s name is mentioned more often than all the other disciples put together: 191 times (162 as Peter or Simon Peter, 23 as Simon and 6 as Cephas). John is next in frequency with only 48 appearances, and Peter is present 50 percent of the time we find John in the Bible. It has been reckoned that all the other disciples combined were mentioned 130 times. If this is correct, Peter is named a remarkable 60 percent of the time any disciple is referred to. as the “chief bishop”.We also know that St. Peter himself presides over and opens the first council of Christian Church, he lays down principles afterward accepted by it (Acts 15:7-11). It is St. Peter’s words that settles the dispute (v.7) that was raging among the apostles and elders, when St. Peter was done speaking all the multitude was silent (v.12). St. Peter also shows his authority by correcting those who would misuse Paul’s writings (2 Pt 3:15-16)
](http://www.catholinsight.com)
The Roman Catholic Church claims that Peter was the bishop of the church at Rome and that he held the position as the first Pope. It is important to point out that that St. Peter held the position as the first Pope, and the was the position of Bishop of Rome, disproving one does not disprove the other. For even if Mr. Cloud could disprove [which he does not] that St. Peter was the Bishop of Rome, this does not disprove the scriptural fact that St. Peter was the Chief Apostle. The biblical Petrine data is quite strong, and is inescapably compelling by virtue of its cumulative weight, even when looking at the King James Bible, the most well known Protestant Bible. St. Peter’s name occurs first in all lists of apostles (see Mt 10:2; Mk 3:16; Lk 6:14; Acts 1:13). Matthew even calls him “the first” (10:2). (Judas Iscariot is invariably mentioned last.). St. Peter is almost without exception named first whenever he appears with anyone else. St. Peter is often spoken of as distinct among apostles (Mk 1:36; Lk 9:28,32; Acts 2:37; 5:29; 1 Cor 9:5).St. Peter is often spokesman for the other apostles, especially at climactic moments (Mk 8:29; Mt 18:21; Lk 9:5; 12:41; Jn 6:67).St. Peter’s name is always the first listed of the “inner circle” of the disciples (Peter, James and John - Mt 17:1; 26:37,40; Mk 5:37; 14:37).St. Peter’s name is mentioned more often than all the other disciples put together: 191 times (162 as Peter or Simon Peter, 23 as Simon and 6 as Cephas). John is next in frequency with only 48 appearances, and Peter is present 50 percent of the time we find John in the Bible. It has been reckoned that all the other disciples combined were mentioned 130 times. If this is correct, Peter is named a remarkable 60 percent of the time any disciple is referred to. as the “chief bishop”.We also know that St. Peter himself presides over and opens the first council of Christian Church, he lays down principles afterward accepted by it (Acts 15:7-11). It is St. Peter’s words that settles the dispute (v.7) that was raging among the apostles and elders, when St. Peter was done speaking all the multitude was silent (v.12). St. Peter also shows his authority by correcting those who would misuse Paul’s writings (2 Pt 3:15-16)
](http://www.catholinsight.com)
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Fr_Ambrose
Guest
mayra hart:
This does not seem to be the understanding of the patristic writings. The commentary of Saint John Chrysostom is fascinating. He is the most voluminous of all the Church Fathers to comment on the New Testament.
He lived in the 4th century, and his words reflect 300 years of the Church’s reflection on the Council of Jerusalem. He speaks of Peter’s role in it, Paul’s place and also James’s role and he gives primacy not to Peter but to James.
Here are his words:
“Then all the multitude kept silence,” etc. (v. 12.) There was no arrogance in the Church. After Peter Paul speaks, and none silences him: James waits patiently, not starts up (for the next word). Great the orderliness (of the proceedings). No word speaks John here, no word the other Apostles, but held their peace, for James was invested with the chief rule, and think it no hardship. So clean was their soul from love of glory. “And after that they had held their peace, James answered,” etc. (v. 13.) (b) Peter indeed spoke more strongly, but James here more mildly: for thus it behooves one in high authority, to leave what is unpleasant for others to say, while he himself appears in the milder part."
ccel.org/fathers/NPNF1-1…Acts-Hom33.html
St. Peter also shows his authority by correcting those who would misuse Paul’s writings (2 Pt 3:15-16)
This does not seem to be the understanding of the patristic writings. The commentary of Saint John Chrysostom is fascinating. He is the most voluminous of all the Church Fathers to comment on the New Testament.
He lived in the 4th century, and his words reflect 300 years of the Church’s reflection on the Council of Jerusalem. He speaks of Peter’s role in it, Paul’s place and also James’s role and he gives primacy not to Peter but to James.
Here are his words:
“Then all the multitude kept silence,” etc. (v. 12.) There was no arrogance in the Church. After Peter Paul speaks, and none silences him: James waits patiently, not starts up (for the next word). Great the orderliness (of the proceedings). No word speaks John here, no word the other Apostles, but held their peace, for James was invested with the chief rule, and think it no hardship. So clean was their soul from love of glory. “And after that they had held their peace, James answered,” etc. (v. 13.) (b) Peter indeed spoke more strongly, but James here more mildly: for thus it behooves one in high authority, to leave what is unpleasant for others to say, while he himself appears in the milder part."
ccel.org/fathers/NPNF1-1…Acts-Hom33.html
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