Are there any teachings of the Eastern Orthodox Church that would be considered heresy in the Roman Catholic Church?

[HomeschoolDad]

I understand what you are saying as it would regard Orthodox canon law or, for instance, the strictness of fasting. What I was searching for is how, or if, an Orthodox priest or bishop would allow a couple to practice contraception in an extreme case. Contraception has nothing to do with canon law, but rather the divine moral law. Or simply put, do Orthodox priests or bishops regard themselves as being able to dispense from the Commandments of God by an appeal to how it would affect someone’s overall chances of salvation?

 

[ziapueblo]

When it comes to the Orthodox and Humanae vitae I always go with what Athenagoras I of Constantinople said about his agreement of the document, “He (Paul VI of Rome) could not have spoken in any other way.”

ZP

 

[HomeschoolDad]

I remember that. Wise man.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

after divorcing as you broke apart what God had joined together

I thought men don’t have power to do that and break those things apart. Three divorces would be enough for almost anyone to manage, I know very few people who were divorced once, maybe two times but never three. It’s pretty easy to come around honestly, if one is not way too careless- or even if he is I guess. Point is annulment teaches God has not joined anything together, re-marriage teaches us to ignore that he did it. It’s a point of view but this time it seems to matter enormously, at least from my experience.

It’s been said permission for a first marriage is granted joyfully

I hope I misunderstand word “joyfully” when acknowledging someone broke God’s commandment.

 

[Isaac14]

I hope I misunderstand word “joyfully”

The key word is FIRST.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

The key word is FIRST.

Right. I thought you meant re-marriage, my bad. Did not realize it needed permission too.

 

[Isaac14]

Or simply put, do Orthodox priests or bishops regard themselves as being able to dispense from the Commandments of God by an appeal to how it would affect someone’s overall chances of salvation?

That’s kind of a loaded way to ask that question, it seems to me to come from a presupposition the Orthodox approach is wrong, though admittedly I may be assuming more than you are actually saying. A priest alone does not have such power to “dispense” anything except with the approval of his bishop.

I have heard there are indeed instances where artificial birth control is allowed, generally with these caveats: methods that are abortifacient are forbidden as is using such for the purpose of completely avoiding conception. I would also repeat this is a matter left (like many other less controversial topics) to the individual, their confessor, and God. I focus on my own salvation and pray for my brothers and sisters.

 

[Isaac14]

I thought men don’t have power to do that and break those things apart.

I would love to have someone fluent in biblical Greek talk about Matthew 19:6. Pretty much every English translation I can find phrases it as “let not man put asunder” rather than “man can not put asunder”. I’ve no idea if this distinction means anything either.

Point is annulment teaches God has not joined anything together, re-marriage teaches us to ignore that he did it.

Why didn’t God validly join me the first time I got married? My wife subsequently abandoned the marriage. I believed then as I do know that God joins us in marriage for life, that divorce is not allowed. But it happened anyway. The tribunal found my first marriage null because I didn’t assess my first wife’s character properly and therefore wasn’t able to fully consent to marriage. The priest interviewing me for the annulment basically coached me on how to answer interview questions so as to build the best case for finding nullity. My experience left it really hard for me to see “annulment” as anything but a word-play to avoid the question of remarriage.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

I’ve no idea if this distinction means anything either.

might be, but that even more so advocates against doing so

Why didn’t God validly join me the first time I got married? My wife subsequently abandoned the marriage.

God did, she did not honor it. Of course though, that is if marriage was done. If Tribunal found it null, chances are that marriage never took place. While possible, it is also possible to be misused (not stating that it is in your case, just stating objectively that it is sometimes abused heavily).

 

[HomeschoolDad]

I think you’re reading more into my question than I’m actually saying. My thinking goes like this: I fully understand that economy is perfectly legitimate, even through Catholic eyes, when understood as a way of loosening man-made Church laws because they cause an undue hardship (or even an obstacle to salvation) for this particular member of the faithful.

It would be similar to obtaining a dispensation in Catholic practice. I have in mind fasting. Orthodox fasting is quite strict. Someone goes to their priest and says, in effect, “I can’t do this”. Then the priest says “okay, so for right now, let’s find something you CAN do — it’ll be strict, but not as strict as the practice that is causing you a problem — and let’s work towards getting you to the point where you can do more in time”. The precise fasting guidelines are of ecclesiastical, not divine origin. Put another way, it is church teaching (whether Catholic or Orthodox) that we must fast, but the exact mechanics of this are up to the Church.

Another example would be mixed marriage. Traditionally, the Catholic Church doesn’t “allow” this, but she tolerates it, if the alternative would be that a weak Catholic would otherwise leave the Church, or if a person lives in an area where there are few eligible Catholic marriage partners. There has to be a dispensation. Though you never hear of it, a priest could very well say “the law is there for a reason — I know you love the Faith and would never leave it, so I don’t think you need to marry a non-Catholic, this is a big city (assuming it is) and there are many, many potential spouses for you”. This would even hold more true in a predominantly Catholic country such as Poland or the Philippines. If the disparity of cult law is never enforced, or has no possibility of ever being enforced, then why have it in the first place?

On the other hand, contraception is not a “law of the Church”. It is a moral teaching, and in the Catholic understanding, it is absolute. A Catholic priest (or a bishop, or the Pope himself) cannot allow “contraception if you absolutely, absolutely have to”, no more than can he can allow adultery, fornication, or masturbation. How, then, does an Orthodox priest (in concert with his bishop) give an “economy” on this? That is my question.

 

[Isaac14]

but that even more so advocates against doing so

What do you mean here? That I shouldn’t try to understand what the scripture is saying in its original language?

God did, she did not honor it. Of course though, that is if marriage was done. If Tribunal found it null, chances are that marriage never took place.

I’m also not understanding what you intend to say here. It was indeed found null because I didn’t properly judge my wife’s character. As I said, my experience left me with a rather cynical view of annulments at as as practiced in the USA.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

What do you mean here? That I shouldn’t try to understand what the scripture is saying in its original language?

I’m saying that “do not let” would forbid it completely, not just make us unable to do it.

 

[Isaac14]

I think you’re reading more into my question than I’m actually saying

Thanks for confirming.

On the other hand, contraception is not a “law of the Church”. It is a moral teaching, and in the Catholic understanding, it is absolute.

This is getting to a point where I am manifestly unqualified to answer. As you noted, in the Catholic understanding, it is absolute. The Orthodox approach to how that moral law is applied may well be different, but this is a topic I have no deep knowledge of and don’t want to try and guess at what that view is.

 

[Isaac14]

I’m saying that “do not let” would forbid it completely, not just make us unable to do it.

I don’t think it’s that simple. Just three verses later Jesus provides an exception for sexual immorality by one spouse.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Just three verses later Jesus provides an exception for sexual immorality by one spouse.

Right, that’s also something that’s very unclear. I’ve heard some theologians say “lust” does not equal adultery, therefore adultery does not clearly qualify in their view. Lust itself would, which is indeed interesting position to take. It’s not clear and hence not uniform practice, but outside this Jesus did not allow this- on the contrary, He did even state which exception is valid.

But you’re probably right, it’s not that simple either.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Thank you for your good (name removed by moderator)ut. I have always wondered how economy “works” where there are questions of moral law, not just church or canon law, and when I heard not long ago that “contraception would require a considerable massage of economy” (or however they phrased it, it was similar to that), I said to myself “wait a minute — using economy to justify bending the moral law of God?”.

Is there any such thing as an “Orthodox Answers Forum” where I wouldn’t be raked over the coals for being a papist?

Let me be clear, also, that if anyone has wondered, I have a deep and abiding reverence and respect for the Orthodox Church. I realize that Catholicism is not always well-liked in Orthodox circles, but that is of no concern to me. I do regret that Orthodoxy has, in many places, the ethnic exclusivity (for lack of a better word) that it does — when I saw the baptism of the groom in My Big Fat Greek Wedding (cute movie) and they said “now you’re Greek”, I wanted to gag! (Figuratively speaking, of course.) I am totally good with Orthodoxy, I just wish we could find a way to reunite East and West while making the requirements of papal primacy as light and gentle as possible. Peace to all.

 

[Angel_Gabriel]

Is there any such thing as an “Orthodox Answers Forum” where I wouldn’t be raked over the coals for being a papist?

Yes actually…I won’t link to it but it’s pretty well known that the major Orthodox forum here in the US has had it’s fair share of anti catholic posters.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

If I truly wanted to participate, in charity and thinking well of everyone concerned, I wouldn’t worry about being “raked over the coals”. That would be on them, not on me. I’ll consider it.

 

[Isaac14]

I just wish we could find a way to reunite East and West while making the requirements of papal primacy as light and gentle as possible.

I think good progress is slowly being made here. The Orthodox/Catholic theological commissions are slowly but surely working through the issues. There’s a lot of work left, to be sure, not the least of which is changing the heart of laity as well. The dialogue here in the US has been meeting since the 60s & have put out a lot of statements which you can find on the USCCB website. I found it to be rather interesting reading.

On the topic of an Orthodox forum, there is one I lurk at. There definitely are a few who have a rather anti-Catholic (really anti-non-Orthodox) stance. I won’t make excuses for them; it’s kind of sad really, but the internet does seem to let the voices of cranks be overly powerful. As a Catholic, I suspect the reception you get is directly related to how open and fair-minded you are in discussion. There is one Catholic poster there who copy/paste long segments of apologetics material, then doesn’t really engage in discussion. He’s not well received. On this forum, I’ve been told that I am condemned to hell for being an orthodox schismatic. The large majority of folks here came to my defense, which was really great

 

[ziapueblo]

Your insight is valued @Isaac14!

ZP