Are there ANY traditions or ceremonies that Jesus gave to the Mormon church while he was on this earth?

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Tsuzuki said:
I would not presume to say who has the unbroken line, but both claim it.
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Mormons have a hard time making that claim stick with their claim of a GREAT APOSTACY.

I’m still waiting for a certain Mormon, but I will take an answer from any Mormon, on how Joseph Smith could be told to restore a Church that he claims was not anywhere to be found on the earth, even though Jesus Christ said the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church. Did Jesus lie? or change His mind? maybe He was mistaken? or was Joseph Smith making up a story?
 
Tsuzuki said:
In Mormonism they are effectively equal, which is effectively the same thing. Mormonism doesn’t think in ontological terms, and that’s where the differences creep in.
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If you read up on their beliefs in the Three, you will see that Jesus, in their doctrine, is less than the Father.
 
Tsuzuki said:
I would not presume to say who has the unbroken line, but both claim it.
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Keeping in mind my prodigious ignorance of the Mormon view of history, can you walk me through the process a little?

Correct me if I’m wrong. Don’t Mormons believe that the Church apostatized before the death of the last Apostle? How would that fit in with a continuing Church with Peter at the helm?

When was Peter resurrected? And was he resurrected to serve on earth? And is he still here or was he taken up into heaven at some point?
 
Tsuzuki said:
According to Mormonism, the fact that it was restored is proof that the gates of hell did not prevail against it.
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So the teaching is that the Church disappeared then was restored? If so, then how long was the period of no Church?
 
Hello Philothea53,
I’m not your Mormon; just a boring Catholic, but the one thing I might mention would be the “baptism of the dead”. See 1 Cor. 15:29. It really looks as if Paul was talking about baptizing the dead and my reading of the text is not that he was ridiculing it. I have not done much study on this, but I can’t make sense of it from a Catholic perspective. If I were Mormon, I’d push on this very strongly. Of course, Paul does not mention the practice as having been started by Jesus. If you’re going to joust with Mormons, you ought to be ready to deal with this point.
 
mercygate said:
Keeping in mind my prodigious ignorance of the Mormon view of history, can you walk me through the process a little?

Correct me if I’m wrong. Don’t Mormons believe that the Church apostatized before the death of the last Apostle? How would that fit in with a continuing Church with Peter at the helm?

When was Peter resurrected? And was he resurrected to serve on earth? And is he still here or was he taken up into heaven at some point?
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They will say the that the Church apostatized before John’s death, but when asked to give an example of how the Church mangaged that, they say the Christians were martyred. I asked why God would punish the Christians because of the pagans. They couldn’t answer that, so they said the Church actually apostatized in the first 200-300 years. When asked how, all they said was that the Christians abandoned God, but they never say how or with what doctrine.
 
Tsuzuki said:
Less in what way? Certainly not lesser in glory or Godhood. He was sent by, and does the will of, the Father, if that’s what you mean.
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Yes, in glory and godhood; as they say, “Jesus was the son, and the son is not above the Father.” I’ve tried to get Their equality across to many different missionaries and I get the same responses. They are not equal. One in purpose, but that’s it.
 
Tsuzuki said:
The LDS church has no position on exactly when the apostasy took place. LDS apologists and other historians with similar views have some dates, but I forget what they are. Most Mormons point to the council of Nicea as the break off point, though I don’t complete buy that.

No clue. The only thing recorded is the one visit to pass on the authority.

I have absolutely no idea.
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Thank you for your candor. Where would I look for answers to these questions?

Just one more question about the Peter thing. When did Peter visit to pass on the authority?
 
Tsuzuki said:
I don’t think they fully understand the meaning of purpose. In Mormonism, unity of purpose is the highest form of unity there is. To Mormonism, purpose is substance.
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Mormons do not understand God period. It’s similar to Protestantism, just another branch of warped “Christianity.” It seems you know the truth regarding the Trinity; what I’m reiterating is what Mormon leaders/scholors/missionaries/and approved books say. There’s no way to argue around it. They believe that there are multiple gods, AND that God the Father is the ultimate god, of this earth. He is not, however (in their theology) the God.
 
Kristine1957 said:
From my understanding the temple ceremonies that the LDS people have today are what they say was back in Christ’s day?
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No, nothing like that. Jesus taught in the temple but the temple was in different parts. The LDS temples are mostly for ceremonies like sealings (marriages) and baptisms. In the basement of each temple is a baptismal font like the one described in Solomon’s temple but outside the description, there’s very little in the Bible about how it was used.
 
Tsuzuki said:
20 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.
- D&C 20:28​
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From material I have gotten from the Mormons:

The Father is Adam who became God, and who has a Heavenly Mother (not the Virgin Mary, see below) with whom he isproducing souls which have to come down to be incarnated so they can become gods too.

The Son is begotten in the normal manner (yes, I mean that).

The Holy Spirit is a Spirit who is not equal to the other two because he has no body.

Doesn’t sound like the Holy Trinity I was baptize into.
 
Pilothea53, most of us are sort of tired of discussing the apostacy, I can understand why Z would just refer you to his blog. As I see it, Mormons don’t accept the Apostolic Succession, i.e. when the mantle borne by the Apostles was assumed by the local bishops and particularly the church in Rome. If there’s any evil on the part of anybody, it was the persecution of the early saints and the eventual extermination of the Apostles. The bishops and local leaders who carried on the Christian tradition are still heroes (and some even martyrs) for keeping Christianity alive but the loss of the Apostles was a severe blow.

Let’s not discuss this anymore.
 
These are quotes from “Gospel Principles,” the book the missionaries have passed out to teach their faith (formally approved by their church, might I add.)

“We keep the Sabbath holy by-…praying to our Heavenly Father…” no mention of the Son or Holy Ghost. Ch. 24

“The first spirit born to our heavenly parents was Jesus Christ.” Ch. 2. The doctrine of the Trinity is the Jesus existed with the Father and Holy Ghost from all eternity, not that He was born in spirit of “heavenly father and heavenly mother.”

“We know that God has a body that looks like ours.” a reference to the Father, chapter 1. Trinity: the Father is spirit, has no body; same for the Holy Ghost. Mormons believe the Holy Ghost has the form of a man (Ch. 21)

The Trintiy always existed. Mormonism:
“It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God…He was once a man like us;…God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Chirst himself did” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-46).

How is this the same as the Trinity?
 
MulusChristi said:
Hello Philothea53,
I’m not your Mormon; just a boring Catholic, but the one thing I might mention would be the “baptism of the dead”. See 1 Cor. 15:29. It really looks as if Paul was talking about baptizing the dead and my reading of the text is not that he was ridiculing it. I have not done much study on this, but I can’t make sense of it from a Catholic perspective. If I were Mormon, I’d push on this very strongly. Of course, Paul does not mention the practice as having been started by Jesus. If you’re going to joust with Mormons, you ought to be ready to deal with this point.
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Yes, when I read this it reminded me of another discussion that was going on about praying to Mary and the Saints for their intercession. Zerinus said on his blog: If you want to ask a Saint to pray for you, you ask him when he is still alive, not when he is dead! When he is dead, he is gone, and he can’t hear nor answer anyone’s prayer.

That begs the question - if the dead are dead, then what good is it to pray for them?? If the dead are dead, what good does it do to baptize them/

But at the same time, we know that Mormons believe the dead have three levels they can aspire to in the afterlife: the terrestrial, the telestial and the celestial. They also believe that those in the hightest can talk to the two below, the one in the middle can be talked to by the one above and can talk to the one below and the one below has to wait til the ones above talk to them. (So…if you go to the lowest and your family to the hightest, you have to wait for them to talk to you cause you can’t talk to them.)

My point is that Zerinus says we can’t ask for intercession of dead Saints but yet we can baptize the dead and the dead can converse, visit, etc. Doesn’t make any sense for me. The explanations only fit the particular discussion at hand apparently. They don’t cross over very well, do they?
 
puzzleannie said:
since the Mormon church was established by Joseph Smith in the early 1800s in New York state, the answer is obviously no. The Mormoms weren’t around when Jesus was on earth, and according to the gospels he was never in New York (more’s the pity). I assume this is a trick question?
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No trick question:) The Mormon church claims it is “restored” from the original church. So in my mind if it is “original” when Christ was here wouldn’t there be some evidence that it actually existed back 2,000 years ago.
 
latinmasslover said:
That is not the information they give, they are very clear when discussing this that they do NOT believe in the Trinity as taught in Christianity. Their books, that are approved by their church are clear on the matter. They do not believe in one God.
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I agree with you but how do they explain the D&C 20:28? Sounds like the Trinity to me?
 
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