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white_sheep
Guest
“To whom else would I go, thou hast the words of life”.
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GraceDK
Guest
What do you mean by valid PJM?
Following one’s conscience is always valid.
Many people have left the Church the last years because of the scandals… Some Catholics find that beyond comprehension, but I don’t. I think its understandable if a person thinks that even the pope was covering up the harm on children, that they would be very troubles… especially if they or their children were directly involved in the tragedy…
Whether we want to or not, we are the representations of Christ, and if we as Catholics fail, then we are at least partly to blame for the fall of our brothers because of our poor example.
Thats why leaders have so much bigger responsibility and their judgment will be much harder than the rest of us, as is written.
I also think its a valid reason if a person goes to another Church and somehow experiences there a revival of faith and believes Christ to be more present to them in this setting.
Following the truth as one perceives it can be the only valid reason to leave the church.
If a person doesn’t believe in the authority of the Catholic Church, then the honest thing is to leave.
M
mark_a
Guest
Some in Catholic authority are good at the kind of response you seek. Some are not. However, without a bottom line answer to the question, most of us, the Church’s children, run amuck.
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PJM
Guest
GOOD POST:thumbsup:
May I suggest, also:
2nd.8: 3-8 “For they gave according to their means, as I can testify, and beyond their means, of their own free will, begging us earnestly for the favor of taking part in the relief of the saints – and this, not as we expected, but first they gave themselves to the Lord and to us by the will of God. Accordingly we have urged Titus that as he had already made a beginning, he should also complete among you this gracious work. Now as you excel in everything – in faith, in utterance, in knowledge, in all earnestness, and in your love for us – see that you excel in this gracious work also. I say this not as a command, but to prove by the earnestness of others that your love also is genuine.”
Being FULLY aware that:
Take Up your Cross and Follow Me
**Phil.2: 8 “And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross Luke.9 :23 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Mark.8: 34 And he called to him the multitude with his disciples, and said to them, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. Luke.9: 23 **And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. **Luke.14: 7 **Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.”
TWO pious considerations:
Can we ever do enough?
Can we ever do Too Much
YOUR DOING GREAT!
God Bless,
Pat
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PJM
Guest
My dear FRIEND in Christ,
As a dad, and grandpa, AN a life-long OLD Catholic; I REALLY DO UNDERSTAND both yor pain and fustration!
However hving retired after more than 20 yas of teaching our Faith any many levels; I am completely convienced [PERSONALLY} that the issues we find most diffiecult; such as Contraception, weekly Mass, the Sacraments, Mrian beleifs; are GOD FOUNDED and beyond the ability of the Church to alter them.
I have often heard priest speak in admiration of the difficult life of the laity. Just last week, Father Mark, on EWTN’ s Daily Mass, spoke about marriage and it’s many challanges and difficultis.
We need to accept BOTH the Crosses we build for ourself
, and the Croses of lovingly gives us in order to permit us to return Love for Love.Were one to ask any priest with a bit of parish experience; I have NO DOUBTS that they too would be full of admiration an respect for what we are obligated to do.
IF WE PERMIT IT; God is always the to assist us.
It’s been noted: "One Ought not expect to prtake of God’ Glory; without ALSO partaking of Christ SUFFERING!
**Phil.1: 29 “For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, “
Be sure you have a VERY active prayer life: KEEP knocking and Christ will be there for us!
God Bless,
Pat
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mark_a
Guest
I’m not the Church or the pope, butMaybe some people do this. Not me. I’m actually trying very hard to be obedient to the teachings I don’t understand or disagree with. I just wish I felt like my Pope and Church could recognize what a struggle it is and give those of us who are trying a bigonce in awhile. I guess I just want a more personal relationship with the Church.
.Best wishes.
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TheRealJuliane
Guest
My pastor tells us all the time how hard it is to be a Catholic in the world today. His messages are the opposite of uplifting. They are thought-provoking but somewhat depressing…OK, mostly depressing. It’s not the equivalent of fire and brimstone, he doesn’t pound us with sin, etc. but I think his messages would resonate with you.
I will tell you what gave me a lot of excitement and hope - watching the Mass for Life last month in Washington DC. So many young priests, religious, and young Catholics filling the National Cathedral was exhilarating!
I think it is also incumbent upon US as Catholics to bring that desire for more connection into church with us - to join groups, to form groups, to do ministry, etc. so that we CREATE what it is that we desire. If you sit back and wait for it to come to you, you are cheating yourself and others of what you have to offer. WE are the Body of Christ, remember???
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PJM
Guest
My friend; didn’t Jesus tell us that a slave is not greater than the Master:[Jn.13:16].
Each of these is based on an unchanagable MORAL RIGHT. NONE ofthem is within the Power of Christ Church; who personally warrants the TRUTHFULNESS of er [The CC] teaching on ALl Moral and Faith issues.
It is an absolute impossibility for the Church to teach in eror on these to catagories so esentail to One’s’Persoanl Salvaton.
Listen to the WORDS OF Our God:
**Matt. 7: 7 -8, 13-15 ** "Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. [GOD WILL NEVER REFUSE TO ASSIST OUR SPIRITUAL BETTERMENT!]
"Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.*** For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few***. "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves"
John 1 :17 “because while the law was given through Moses, grace and truth came through Jesus Christ”
**John 14: 16-17 **“And I [JESUS] will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you.” DONE DEAL!
John 17: 14-19 “I [JESUS] have given them thy word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.” ONLY THEE CC CAN MAKE THIS STATEMENT!
ALL of the reasons you provided, quite likely are prideful choices for SELF rather than obey God. Ad there will be a penalty to pay. Noting in this life is unconditionally FREE; including od’s grace; which at a mininum require WILLFUL acceptenace of it.
Heb.6 Verses 4 to 10: “For it is impossible [EXCEPT FOR GOD HIMSELF] to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, **[Baptized] **who have tasted the heavenly gift, Eucharist] and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, **[Confirmed] ** and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, **[Heard THEE TRUTH PROCLAIMED TO THEM] ** if they then commit apostasy, **[LEAVE THE CC] **since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned. “
Let us ALL, pray for there necesary return to God’s loving grace!
Pat
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PJM
Guest
Hi Beth, GREAT POST
THANKS,There is an element of truth in your statement; and I fear a GREAT multitude of priest, bishops and religious may have to do a GREAT deal of explaining to God.
That said; God GRAVELY Obligates Himself to GRANT every human being He Creates “At least” the minimum amount of grace needed to Know him; and knowing Him; in humility to love, and OBEDIENTLY serve Him.
It’s a REAL difficult cal; one we are not to make. I’m God God not me has to decide!
God Bless,
Pat
smiley in my post.
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BrushedByAngels
Guest
I live in a very liberal county, unfortunately where our Bishop raped several boys. I always ask people about their religion (I’m a curious soul) and the people that have left say “I was Catholic” … and when I ask why they left our faith they always mention the sexual abuse scandal.
It is very disappointing and I can understand why those that left. However, I love my catholic faith and I’m not about to let criminal priests and bishops determine whether I stay or leave.
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TheRealJuliane
Guest
You need to remind them that there are child molesters wherever there are children, not exclusively in the Catholic Church. Protestant ministers can also be child molesters, but we rarely if ever hear about them because they are not despised as Catholics are. Teachers can be child molesters; babysitters; just about ANYONE can be a child molester and the population of molesters is not any higher within the Church than it is in society in general.I live in a very liberal county, unfortunately where our Bishop raped several boys. I always ask people about their religion (I’m a curious soul) and the people that have left say “I was Catholic” … and when I ask why they left our faith they always mention the sexual abuse scandal.
That fact in no way excuses any molestation done by priests or deacons. We ought to be better than society in general. I have heard that many homosexual pedophiliac priests were allowed into seminary in the liberal 1960’s and maybe 1970’s. And that when pedophilia happened, it was thought to be curable so the priests were moved out of the area, not necessarily to protect them but the congregation.
Those people might not listen to a word you could say but I would say it anyway.
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BrushedByAngels
Guest
Oh, I do. I give them the “only 2% of priest have been convicted” (it sounds better than saying only 4,000 have been accused of it)
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mangy_dog
Guest
I believe there are as many reasons as there are Catholics in the world. However, reasons with “merit” and “justified”…I don’t think there are any.
It usually comes down to:
lack of understanding
lack of faith
lack of information
lack of proper formation
lack of support
lack of humility
lack of sacraments
lack of prayer
lack of devotion
lack of reverence
lack of lack of lack of lack of…
There is no [valid] reason to leave the One, True church that Christ intended to exist after His ascension into heaven and of which He left Peter as its first pope…264 popes later to Pope Benedict XVI. And the gates of hell have not and will not prevail against her.
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AnneTeresa
Guest
I see your point and I have felt the same way at times. But I’ve come to realize that God (thus the Church) really DOES believe this. Maybe the priest, maybe your bishop, maybe the Pope don’t SAY this in so many words, but if we follow the Church, we are following God, and God DOES say this to us.Now let’s say that when my Mom (or the Church) says “no” and I ask “Why?”, I’m told, "Because I love you! I know that this is very difficult for you to understand right now because you think I’m just being dictatorial and that I don’t want you to have any fun, but trust me, this is what is best for you. You might have fun tonight, but it’s my job to worry about much more than how much fun you are having tonight! I want you to be happy forever, and I will do whatever it takes to make sure that you stay on the right path that will get you there. You are the whole reason I am here, to guide you and to love you and to be the one who looks out for your well-being. You are the most important thing in the world to me and even though you might not like it, this is what is best and you just have to trust me. Oh, and here’s a bunch of statistics and pages of materials to back up my reasons for knowing that this is the right thing for you
That said, when I was really really struggling with a particular teaching, someone said to me “you know, I realize this is very very difficult for you and I’m going to help you get through it”. That made all the difference in the world. Seeking out understanding people who will explain things always helps me.
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AnneTeresa
Guest
This is a great description of it.I’m the mother of three, ages 29, 27, and 25.
I know first hand that most parents do indeed say, "I love you, this is why even though when you think I’m being too harsh I’m really loving you, it would be easy to say yes and get you feeling all happy because you get what you want. . .but what you ‘want’ is going to wind up hurting you dreadfully. Rather than let you hurt yourself, I’d rather hurt myself by hearing you ‘hate on me’. And here are not just ‘because I say so’ reasons but facts and testamonies from people who experienced these things first-hand and know ALL the facts."
What do the kids hear?? 'blah blah blah blah (no you can’t) blah blah (SAYS she loves me but sure doesn’t show it) blah blah blah (can’t trust grownups) blah blah (they don’t know anything) blah blah (just shut up you stupid evil hypocrites).
At first, they will first rant and rave about how ‘mean’ you were and how rigid and hateful and use this as an excuse to do the wrong thing because obviously YOU are the one who is wrong and what they do is therefore ‘right.’
Then they will blame you for not being ‘strong enough’ to stop them from doing wrong. You didn’t make it ‘clear enough.’ You didn’t talk long enough. So their wrongdoing was your fault --not because you didn’t tell them, but because you didn’t work hard enough for them to REALIZE that you were ‘right’.
Then. . .usually in the mid 20s. . .they start to allow as how maybe you DID make it clear but they weren’t quite able to understand because somebody ELSE (older sibling, trusted peer, celebrity of the month) had ‘forced’ them to disregard you by somehow misrepresenting you. So now it is the fault of that OTHER person.
FINALLY they take on their responsibility. “Yes Mom, back when you told me X, was wrong and why, and I did X anyway, it wasn’t because of YOU, or because of my best friend, it was because I didn’t want to listen and I made a bad decision. I’m sorry.”
Now I’m not saying that there are not certain people (priests, religious, even people on Catholic forums) who are pretty much into thundering “Don’t do this” without much (if any) “because I love you”. There are. But they’re the exception, not the rule.
But there are also a lot of “la la la I’m not listening” people (NOT that I am accusing anybody personally!) who make bad decisions and then want to blame it, not on themselves, but on the ‘lack’ of somebody else. . .mom or “The Church”. . .and because they know that both Mom and The Church went to a lot of trouble to make it clear that some decisions are BAD DECISIONS, the only way to make it Mom’s or the Church’s FAULT is to ignore the teaching part and start to accuse them of just not being LOVING enough.
This is exactly what I do every time I hear about a Church rule I didn’t know about or something God asks me to do that is really hard. EVERY TIME, I get mad, I rationalize, I obsess, I blame, I fight–and eventually I come around. 
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AnneTeresa
Guest
Back to the original question, I left the Church for many many years and the way this poster explained it is why.It took a long time to stop blaming and take responsibility.
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GrandmaRose
Guest
Dear Thoughtfulone…
Just a couple of things, (since I’m already in jeopardy in this Forum with the banning guillotine poised to drop at my every keystroke).
I respectuflly and humbly say that what you’re looking for will not be found on this ultra-conservative site, where the letter of the Law trumps compassion and understanding with almost every post. There is apparently a type of blind obedience to Rome that is the standard here… not that there are not loving individuals who participate – but I suspect from all your postings that their orientation toward “law” may be different than yours.
You WILL find the kind of encouragement, love, support and freedom to use your own informed, adult conscience in more progressive, yet fully orthodox (little o) parishes, staffed by priests who understand the reality of family life as it’s lived today, with all its struggles, limitations and problems.
Authentic Catholic life is lived in parishes. The Spirit is alive and well, full of mercy and compassion, peace and joy in this journey we walk together. You simply won’t find those qualities and virtues by looking to legalistic Roman utterings. While these are certainly “valid” – they so often don’t and can’t relate to each person’s individual circumstance. It’s simply not possible to codify and regulate every single human action, motive or circumstance – that’s God’s job, which He does so perfectly.
I have so many issues with Rome’s authority and the shortcomings I see (as do millions of others see) in the men who “guide” the Church yet don’t measure up in any way to their own standards.
However…the Eucharist is Jesus, and it is Jesus who welcomes us to celebrate and pray and become His body. In Him is all love, all mercy, all understanding. Surely He can be found elsewhere (“where two or three are gathered in My name…”) but obviously you are still drawn to the Catholic church. I say, hang in there, find like-minded people and priests who mirror your own gut feelings and live a Christ-like life among them.
I’ve made that choice and my peace with it. As long as I don’t think too much about Rome, I’m content and honored to remain Catholic (and one in good standing without heresy, I might add, before there are 52 posts fabricating and denoucing my status).
I appreciate each post you write and sympathize with your positions and your struggles. From personal experience here, however, I can only suggest that you and this online community are not a perfect fit – nor am I.
God bless you. I hope you can find the peace and understanding that really is “out there” waiting for you. It’s real, it’s available – and it’s of Jesus.
Just a couple of things, (since I’m already in jeopardy in this Forum with the banning guillotine poised to drop at my every keystroke).
I respectuflly and humbly say that what you’re looking for will not be found on this ultra-conservative site, where the letter of the Law trumps compassion and understanding with almost every post. There is apparently a type of blind obedience to Rome that is the standard here… not that there are not loving individuals who participate – but I suspect from all your postings that their orientation toward “law” may be different than yours.
You WILL find the kind of encouragement, love, support and freedom to use your own informed, adult conscience in more progressive, yet fully orthodox (little o) parishes, staffed by priests who understand the reality of family life as it’s lived today, with all its struggles, limitations and problems.
Authentic Catholic life is lived in parishes. The Spirit is alive and well, full of mercy and compassion, peace and joy in this journey we walk together. You simply won’t find those qualities and virtues by looking to legalistic Roman utterings. While these are certainly “valid” – they so often don’t and can’t relate to each person’s individual circumstance. It’s simply not possible to codify and regulate every single human action, motive or circumstance – that’s God’s job, which He does so perfectly.
I have so many issues with Rome’s authority and the shortcomings I see (as do millions of others see) in the men who “guide” the Church yet don’t measure up in any way to their own standards.
However…the Eucharist is Jesus, and it is Jesus who welcomes us to celebrate and pray and become His body. In Him is all love, all mercy, all understanding. Surely He can be found elsewhere (“where two or three are gathered in My name…”) but obviously you are still drawn to the Catholic church. I say, hang in there, find like-minded people and priests who mirror your own gut feelings and live a Christ-like life among them.
I’ve made that choice and my peace with it. As long as I don’t think too much about Rome, I’m content and honored to remain Catholic (and one in good standing without heresy, I might add, before there are 52 posts fabricating and denoucing my status).
I appreciate each post you write and sympathize with your positions and your struggles. From personal experience here, however, I can only suggest that you and this online community are not a perfect fit – nor am I.
God bless you. I hope you can find the peace and understanding that really is “out there” waiting for you. It’s real, it’s available – and it’s of Jesus.
P
PJM
Guest
I’m A SPONCER for a man who came into the Church, just a few years ago; while I was still teaching RCIA. *.=BrushedByAngels;7609939]I live in a very liberal county, unfortunately where our Bishop raped several boys. I always ask people about their religion (I’m a curious soul) and the people that have left say “I was Catholic” … and when I ask why they left our faith they always mention the sexual abuse scandal.
He too left the Church [for a short time ONLY…**THANK GOD!], *for the same reason.
But like I shared with Him: Luke.6: 37 “Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;”
Because priest and Bishops so openly represent the CC; it seems reasonable that such “models” set themselves up for greater criticism than lay-folk; or even Ministers of other Faiths.
This fact is well known by all; and most definetly by all who have FREELY given there lives to Christ, through His CC. So this anger is in a sense justified.
I say “in a sense” becaue there is another side of the issue. While given graces we lay-folk never have made available to us, priest, bishops, religous too are “just human beings” with the same opportunities to say “NO TO GOD,” as you and me. Despite Being “chosen by God”… and granted ALL THE NECESSARY Graces to complete the Mission given to them.
**John.15: 16 **“You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide; so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.”
Obviously they did NOT ask God for assitance! But like us have a natural tendency toward sin; and being “called By God” become “Bulls Eye” targets of Satan.
We ought not forget that Judas too was Chosen by God; that all the Apostles abandoned Him in the garden at His capture; and that ONLY John stood with Him, at the foot of the Cross, along with Mother Mary and the other good women.
Where there is sin; Grace abounds; but grace is ONLY “an OFFER” for asistance; NEVER mandated. It can always be rejected! As it **would seem **to be in these cases; in these unexcusable; horrid, examples of choosing [time and again]; “self” over God. Sin too is habitual.
The last issue is the FACT that the CC has for some 2,000 years been consistantly, the target of many who desire to do Her Serious Harm. Without doubt; our Church was the target; far more directly, than the sorrid purptrators of the crimes; made WORSE by a group of politically minded bishops; who too; denined God’s help!
**Matt.5: 11 to 20 **"Blessed are you when men revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so men persecuted the prophets who were before you. **"You are the salt of the earth; but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trodden under foot by men. **“You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hid. Nor do men light a lamp and put it under a bushel, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. [The RISK HERE is abuse of power… God demans that we chose good or evil!] **Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven. **” Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I [Jesus] tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
But as I stated in the top of this Post: ONLY God is to Judge; Only God can decide if they have repented and are fogiven. WE ARE TO LOVE THE SIINER; WHILE AT THE SAME TIME HATING THE SIN"
We areobligated to pray daily for the special needs and graces our priest and Bishops need to remain Faithful t God; and to be BRIGHT lights of Sacrifie and Faith for all to see.
God Bless,
Pat
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GraceDK
Guest
Dear Juliane… I think all people know this. Lets admit that the scandal became a scandal because people perceived that child molestation had been covered up, priests been moved around instead of dealt with as criminals, after Church authorities had become aware of what was going on.
I am in an environment where we all really admire Pope John 2, but someone told us that regardless of all his great talents, he simply could not believe what was going on and took no action.
This is the sad part. This is the guilt of the Church.
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