Are there just a few of us?

[jeffreedy789]

i think the answer to your question, alan (and i’ve come to enjoy your questions) comes under the concept of ‘declaring’.

a previous marriage has to be ‘declared’ null before a consequent marriage can take place. it’s not just realizing something that was already true. if that was the case, then no one who ever remarried would have to have their marriage annulled. they would just ‘consider’ it null, and be done with it.

the church has to declare the previous marriage null before the persons involved can move on to marry again. perhaps, though, we should carry questions of a speculative nature into their own thread? i feel like we’re talking about someone in the third person while they’re standing in front of us.

 

[clmowry]

AlanFromWichita:

What spiritual good, then, can going through the Tribunal possibly do, unless in the case of a valid prior marriage you are actually willing to leave your current wife, and simultaneously urge your ex-spouse to break up with her current lover?

If you aren’t going to do that, why bother? Your status before God isn’t going to change; only your status before men. Sure, those men can refuse you Communion but if it was a valid marriage then the Tribunal can’t change it. If it was an invalid marriage then you are being punished unjustly by being denied the Eucharist and will be blessed in heaven.

Interesting set of questions that brings a couple thoughts to mind:

The last first, I don’t think anyone is being “punished,” unjustly or not, by being “denied” the Eucharist. We denied ourselves the Eucharist by choosing to re-marry without obtaining an annulment.

We are (or were) punishing ourselves.

Hopefully a theologian will come out of the wood works to answer the other question your questions bring to my mind. I’m not real sure how to phrase it, but it probably has applicability well beyond annulments and re-marriage.

If the Church has the power to loose and bind, then if, I had and “invalid marriage in God’s eyes” but chose for whatever reason not to pursue and annulment from the Church, knowing that that option was available to me. Have I chosen to live in a state of adultry, and in a state of separation from God and His Church, though I could have chosen to not live in that state?

That is would God at my judgement say…“Well your first marriage was invalid, so you wern’t really commiting adultry, though you thought you were? So your forgiven, annulment or not”? Or instead…“You knew what you needed to do to get right with me, you could have been forgiven but chose not to, that’s why I founded a church, why didn’t you listen to them?”

Yeah…clear as mud.

Chuck

 

[All4lifetoo]

jmm08:

I am only in RCIA. It seems to me that if the tribunal is valid then their decisions are valid. It seems to me that you are being too hard on yourself. It seems to me that you need to be truthful to the tribunal and accept their decision.

The problem is that the US has an annulment rate that is many times higher than the nearest other nation. Even the Pope has seen fit to address in writing the need to review the mariage validity at the time of the marriage and not according to subsequent events that happened in the marriage. Simply because a marriage “goes bad” does not mean that there was some impediment to the marriage at the time of the marriage. I would not mind submitting my marriage to a tribunal for review if I knew that the tribunal was orthodox. The problem is, how do I know? How can I determine this in advance? I know of no way to insure that the tribunal that reveiws my case is orthodox. The Church is suppose to presume the marriage is valid and then go from there. So, I will presume that it is also and will not submit for a review until I can somehow be assured that the review will be orthodox.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

jeffreedy789:

perhaps, though, we should carry questions of a speculative nature into their own thread? i feel like we’re talking about someone in the third person while they’re standing in front of us.

Dear jeffreedy789,

I appreciate the interest you take in my questions, and your sensititivy about talking to each other “in front” of the OP. Actually in cases like this I do intend the OP to see my discussion, but I certainly see how it could seem rude. That said, I’ll address the rest of this post to Peter.

PeterC:

What should a person like me do who will not have a marriage annulled? What circumstances must exist for me to receive Holy Communion?

Dear Peter,

I think your last question has been answered by others, that you must live apart, or as “brother and sister” with, or leave your “current” wife until your “first” wife dies, or get an annulment. That may be true; I don’t claim to know.

To your question about “what should you do,” if the above are all the options you have, and you won’t get an annulment, it sounds like you’ll have to choose between the Eucharist and living as husband-and-wife. Is that any more appealing than annulment? If that’s an acceptable solution, than are we done with this thread?

Feeling lonely about not going to Communion is terrible. There are many people who go but shouldn’t, I believe, but I cannot judge so I cannot say for sure. As I mentioned earlier, it would not surprise me if many going to Communion, including some of those handing it out, are doing so while guilty of offenses at least as displeasing to God as what you are describing, but that’s between them and God.

Alan

 

[chicago]

All4lifetoo:

I would not mind submitting my marriage to a tribunal for review if I knew that the tribunal was orthodox. The problem is, how do I know? How can I determine this in advance? I know of no way to insure that the tribunal that reveiws my case is orthodox. The Church is suppose to presume the marriage is valid and then go from there. So, I will presume that it is also and will not submit for a review until I can somehow be assured that the review will be orthodox.

You could always appeal to the Roman Rota if the declaration came back in favor of nullity.

 

[Catholic2003]

Dr. Ed Peters has a very good article on the number of annulments in the U.S.

 

[chrisg93]

First, I cannot possibly imagine your references to “some obscure rule” and “didn’t know whay others were thinking” as grounds for annulment. Without being disrespectful, it sounds very weak to me. With all brotherly love and admitting I know nothing about the annulment process or your situation, it “sounds” like you have avoided your responsibility on a technicallity.

Second, I never dated my wife before we were married. Never kissed, never alone together for a minute. We were married in a double ceremony, Catholic and Greek Orthodox. Third, I was impotent for three months after the wedding. I probably have technical grounds for an annulment but I know in my heart that I was truely married.

Please forgive my personal details if it bothers you. I don’t mean to offend.

 

[Catholic2003]

chrisg93:

First, I cannot possibly imagine your references to “some obscure rule” and “didn’t know whay others were thinking” as grounds for annulment. Without being disrespectful, it sounds very weak to me. With all brotherly love and admitting I know nothing about the annulment process or your situation, it “sounds” like you have avoided your responsibility on a technicallity.

I know you meant this in the best possible way. However, it sounds to me like you are encouraging me to reject the Church’s authority over the sacrament of marriage, and substitute my own personal feelings in its place. If you are, then I have to say that I disagree with this advice. If you are not, then I apologize for having misunderstood you.

chrisg93:

Second, I never dated my wife before we were married. Never kissed, never alone together for a minute. We were married in a double ceremony, Catholic and Greek Orthodox. Third, I was impotent for three months after the wedding. I probably have technical grounds for an annulment but I know in my heart that I was truely married.

If you never consumated your marriage, then the Pope can dispense your bond of matrimony. This is different from an annulment, which says that the marriage was never valid. This is a dispensation of an actual, valid marriage that was never consumated for whatever reason, impotence or anything else.

If your marriage was eventually consumated, then any temporary impotence, however long in duration, is not grounds for an annulment.

chrisg93:

Please forgive my personal details if it bothers you. I don’t mean to offend.

It’s clear from you post that you mean only to help, and I appreciate that.

 

[KCT]

AlanFromWichita:

While I cannot feel your pain, since I was never married before my current marriage, I cannot help but think how unfair and arbitrary our system of deciding who should go to Holy Communion and who shouldn’t. While I’m not advocating going against the teachings of the Church, it hurts to see certain sins, especially the “more visible” ones, enforced while others, possibly much more heinous, ignored. Alan

What do you mean ignored? God knows if someone is receiving when they shouldn’t be. There will be judgement from Him when the time comes. —KCT

 

[kayla]

HI Peter,

I am one of those who sat in the pew at Communion time…with TEARS in my eyes
One day I said to myself…this has got to change, I wanted more than anything to recieve the true presance of Jesus Christ at mass.
I too was married and divorced and then remarried outside the church, I too love my current husband and feel our marriage is strong.
First thing: find out if your Priest will give you a spiritual blessing at the alter (by crossing your arms over your chest) when you walk up to him with the others…this way you won’t have to SIT in the pew by yourself and feel left out.
Second: please look to your church for a spiritual councelor,
I did this to find out my options and how I could again start to receive Holy Communion. As others have mentioned there are several ways to go about it, everyone’s situation is different.
What I chose to do was this:… I went to confession and told the priest that I was living in a non-sacramental marriage and asked him for guidance. He told me I must refrain from any sexual relationions with my current spouse, and we must live as brother and sister.( this does not mean you have to live or sleep in separate houses) If you can do this and you have repented your sin at confession…then you are in the state of grace and can receive Communion, provided you have confessed your other sins as well, and are truely sorry for them.
However, I am in the process of an Anullment, because I’m hoping that once it’s complete, my husband and I can take our marriage vows in the Catholic church.
I will be praying for you and hope that you can work this out

 

[All4lifetoo]

chicago:

You could always appeal to the Roman Rota if the declaration came back in favor of nullity.

If I were the one to request the tribunal, and it ruled in my favor (even if for a reason other than what I expected), I don’t know if I would have an appeal to Roman Rota. I suppose it is possible but it seems counter intuitive. Winners usually don’t appeal the decision.