Are there Protestant Bashing Books?

[smelton]

mercygate:

James tells us that we should confess our sins to one another, right? (James 5:16) So that means that in the Church, we confess not just to God alone, but “to the Church.” For practical purposes, we limit this to confession to a priest because priests receive the faculty of “binding and loosing” in matters of conscience from the bishop, who receives it through the laying on of hands at his consecration as bishop. The specific power to forgive sins is God-breathed by Jesus upon the Apostles on Easter night (Jn 20:22-23): And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

The Greek here is straightforward and forceful. Attempts to sidestep this by saying that Jesus is telling the Apostles that if they preach that God forgives sins, and people believe them, then their sins wll be forgiven are squirrely and just plain deceptive. Why would he need to breathe the charism into them for *that? *A lot of Protestants interpret the Catholic view as meaning that forgivenss is taken out of God’s hands and placed into the hands of mere men. Nothing could be further from the truth. ONLY God forgives sins: the Priest acts “in persona Christi” but fully under the authority of Christ.

Since the forgiveness of sins is the core of the Gospel message, the Magisterium of the Catholic Church interprets this verse as meaning that Jesus has given us this concrete means and assurance of forgiveness of post-baptismal sin. (This is one of the very few biblical passages about which the Church has made a formal interpretation, which is binding on the faithful – there are fewer than a dozen). The Church understands this passage (in light of James 15:16) to mean that a confession is necessary: otherwise, how would the priest know what to forgive?

The earliest records of the subapostolic Church (from the middle of the second centry) record the practice of confession – usually before the entire congregation ( :bigyikes: we’re kind of relieved that we don’t have to do that any more) but always in the presence of the presbyter:

In 2 Cor 2:10, Paul refers to having forgiven the incestuous man “in the person of Christ” (KJV) and later refers to being entrusted with “the ministry of reconciliation” and being “ambassadors for Christ” – IOW: entrusted with actual powers to forgive and reconcile from the King himself.

There’s more, but this should give you a start.

Alright let me start by saying I believe you should confess your sins. 1 John 1:9. Let me try and explain my understanding of this and then you can show me where we differ. This has been a very quick study keep in mind so I’m open to the possiblity that I’m wrong.
I think this has to go back to Matt. 16:18-19 where Jesus gives Peter the keys to the church. Jesus says here the bound and loose statement. My understanding is that when this happened Christ was also giving athourity to all believers to confront sin and declare sinful acts sinful. I think it has to be read in the context of Matt 18:15-20. I think that clearly gives believers to confront sin and do the bind and loose thing. If this is not right could someone please explain Matt 18:15-20 to me.

 

[NotWorthy]

Smelton, let’s start with confession:

As soon as Jesus rose from the dead and earned salvation for us, he brought his apostles a new gift. After speaking peace to them, he said, “As the Father has sent me, even so I send you” (John 20:21). Just as Jesus was sent by the Father to reconcile the world to God, Jesus sent the apostles to continue his mission.

Jesus then breathed on the apostles. This is a verse that is often passed over, but it has extraordinary significance because it is only the second time in all of Scripture where God breathes on anyone. The other instance was at the moment of creation, when God breathed his own life into the nostrils of Adam. This should tell us that something of great importance is taking place. Upon doing this, Jesus said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained” (John 20:22–23).

Notice that Jesus is not simply commissioning the apostles to preach about God’s forgiveness. He is not saying, “Go tell everyone that when God forgives men’s sins, they’re forgiven.” In using the second person plural you, Jesus is telling his apostles that by the power of the Holy Spirit he has given them the power to forgive and retain the sins of men. Having the power to forgive and to retain sins implies that the apostle knows what a person’s sins are, which in turn implies oral confession. Otherwise, how is the apostle to know what to retain or forgive?

In the same way that Jesus gave his apostles other supernatural powers (such as raising men from the dead), he gave them power to absolve sins (raising them from spiritual death). In Matthew 9, we read that Jesus forgave a paralytic and then healed him so “that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins” (Matt. 9:6)

After he exercised this power as a man, the crowds glorified God for having given “such authority to men” (Matt. 9:8, emphasis added). Notice that Matthew indicates this power to forgive sins had been given to men, and not simply to a man.

Notworthy

 

[NotWorthy]

Another source we have is how did the Early Church treat confession. Remember, not everything Jesus taught the Apostles was written in the Bible. Some of the things He taught them was instituted in what we call Sacred Tradition. You’ll notice the first link, from the Didache, was written sometime between 70-90AD, ***70-90AD!!! ***This was a catechism that was written and used by the Church at the time that some Apostles were still alive. As demonstrated in Acts, if someone was doing something in the name of the Church, that went against what the Apostles felt was right, they were made aware of this error and made to stop. But see what the Church had to say.

Consider the following early Christian writings from the first five centuries: “Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . . On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure” (Didache 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 70]).

“[Regarding confession, some] flee from this work as being an exposure of themselves, or they put it off from day to day. I presume they are more mindful of modesty than of salvation, like those who contract a disease in the more shameful parts of the body and shun making themselves known to the physicians; and thus they perish along with their own bashfulness”(Tertullian, Repentance 10:1 [A.D. 203]).

“[The bishop conducting the ordination of the new bishop shall pray:] God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ . . . pour forth now that power which comes from you, from your royal spirit, which you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, and which he bestowed upon his holy apostles . . . and grant this your servant, whom you have chosen for the episcopate, [the power]* to feed your holy flock and to serve without blame as your high priest . . . and by the Spirit of the high-priesthood to have the authority to forgive sins, in accord with your command*” (Hippolytus, Apostolic Tradition 3 [A.D. 215]).

“Priests have received a power which God has given neither to angels nor to archangels. It was said to them: ‘Whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose, shall be loosed.’ Temporal rulers have indeed the power of binding; but they can only bind the body. Priests, in contrast, can bind with a bond which pertains to the soul itself and transcends the very heavens. Did [God] not give them all the powers of heaven? ‘Whose sins you shall forgive,’ he says, ‘they are forgiven them; whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.’ What greater power is there than this? The Father has given all judgment to the Son. And now I see the Son placing all this power in the hands of men” (John Chrysostom, The Priesthood 3:5 [A.D. 387]).

Notworthy

 

[smelton]

Alright, I understand you position on confession. I’m not sure I agree but I’m not certian that it is important that I agree. I just wanted to understand and now I do. I really appreciate that this practice is based on your interpretation of scripture. I hadn’t ever considered that before but its interesting. I’m still curious how it coincides with Matt 18:15-20.

 

[NotWorthy]

aria13:

I want to know WHY you want these books?? Just as references or to do comparisons, or what? I just find this a most interesting seach. I hate reading any book that bashes any faith, but if you’re using them as a research projoect and for general knowledge, I guess it’s ok.

I, too, hate any book that bashes another faith, especially by distorting the facts. As you well know, there are tons of those out about the Catholic Church. How do you know these are meant to distort the facts? Take the one about Catholics adding the books to the Bible in 1500’s during Trent. Someone questioned me on that. I showed them where we’ve accepted the Deuterocanonicals since the 390’s with Hippo and Carthage. This person will still spread that falsehood*** knowing that it is not true, just to further his point***. Don’t you think Jack Chick has heard many times that he is distorting the Catholic Tradition of Purgatory, and do you think he has changed his tracts because of it?

The reason for this post to begin with, is I had wondered if any Catholic writers had sunken to the depths of Lorraine Boettner and his Ilk and made any money off of it. It is a most despicable thing, no matter who the subject of the attack is, and no matter what the intent is.

The lack of any real response has been most comforting.

Notworthy

 

[jimmy]

smelton:

Alright let me start by saying I believe you should confess your sins. 1 John 1:9. Let me try and explain my understanding of this and then you can show me where we differ. This has been a very quick study keep in mind so I’m open to the possiblity that I’m wrong.
I think this has to go back to Matt. 16:18-19 where Jesus gives Peter the keys to the church. Jesus says here the bound and loose statement. My understanding is that when this happened Christ was also giving athourity to all believers to confront sin and declare sinful acts sinful. I think it has to be read in the context of Matt 18:15-20. I think that clearly gives believers to confront sin and do the bind and loose thing. If this is not right could someone please explain Matt 18:15-20 to me.

In Matt.16 Christ is speaking specifically to Peter. The words in the Greek are in the singular, therefore it can only be understood as being to Peter alone. In Matt. 18 Christ does give the apostles authority to bind and loose, but with the apostles it is them as a whole. With Peter, it is directed to him alone. Peter could bind on his own, the rest of the apostles could bind as a council of the Church.

In John20 Christ specifically tells the apostles that the sins they do not forgive are not forgiven. He is giving them authority for the sacrament. They can say, you are not forgiven. The only ones who were in the room at the time were the eleven. Christ is speaking to these 11 men, not to all Christians.

 

[jimmy]

smelton:

Alright, I understand you position on confession. I’m not sure I agree but I’m not certian that it is important that I agree. I just wanted to understand and now I do. I really appreciate that this practice is based on your interpretation of scripture. I hadn’t ever considered that before but its interesting. I’m still curious how it coincides with Matt 18:15-20.

Matt.18 is not specifically speaking of confession. It is speaking of any dispute between the Christians that would require an authoritative decision. When the apostles come together they could decide on the disputes of the Church. This binding and loosing was given to the Church, or in other words the apostles in communion. The ability to forgive sins was specifically given to each of the apostles in John 20. Christ does not meniton the Church here, He just says whose sins you forgive are forgiven, whose sins you retain are retained.

 

[NotWorthy]

smelton:

I really appreciate that this practice is based on your interpretation of scripture. I hadn’t ever considered that before but its interesting.

Most people are surprised that Catholics even crack open a bible, let alone base our beliefs on it. That’s mostly our fault.

I have a book, “A Biblical Defense of Catholicism”, that my Church of Christ friend claims to be the thinnest book in the world!!! He’s often surprised in the same way that you are.

God Bless!

Notworthy

P.S. I’ll work on your Matthew quote.

 

[Ryniev]

As far as the original question is concerned, I don’t specifically know of any Protestant bashing books by Catholics. However, if you go into any fundamentalist bookstore you can find books that bash pretty much every denomination save Southern Baptists type religion such as: This denomination is false because they practice infant baptism, allow drinking, speak in tongues, don’t immerse in water etc. etc. etc.

Some Protestants have done such a good job of beating each other up, I guess there are is no need for Catholics to do so. Not to mention the fact that it would be like the 6 ft tall, 200 lb kid beating up the smaller kids. Everyone knows he could whup them, so why bother?

 

[NotWorthy]

Ryniev:

if you go into any fundamentalist bookstore you can find books that bash pretty much every denomination save Southern Baptists type religion such as: This denomination is false because they practice infant baptism, allow drinking, speak in tongues, don’t immerse in water etc. etc. etc.

So that’s where they get all their material for Sunday School. Just kidding. Sort of.

Notworthy

 

[Ryniev]

NotWorthy:

So that’s where they get all their material for Sunday School. Just kidding. Sort of.

Notworthy

In the Sunday School I attended as a child, we did a lot of comparing what other faiths believed. I’m sure most of it wasn’t accurate but it was well intentioned. It wasn’t in a “why everyone else is wrong and going to hell” sort of way, more of “I have a friend who is <Catholic, Baptist, Mormon> what do they believe so I can try and understand where they are coming from” sort of way.

 

[NotWorthy]

Living here in Southeast Texas, the heart of the bible belt, I could go to any of my friends and ask them why I’m going to hell, and they could rattle off a quick list. Heck, sometimes I didn’t even have to ask them!

Notworthy

 

[cestusdei]

I never really thought of this. I have never encountered a Catholic equivalent to Protestant screeds against Catholicism. Maybe I should write one, lol.

 

[Petergee]

“Catholics believe in salvation by works, You must be good enough to get to Heaven and if you commit sins, then you must confess these sins to a priest, in order to be forgiven. The priest will give you a penance to do which will make up for the sins and then you will be forgiven. If you commit a serious sin, called a mortal sin and die before you confess that sin, you will go to Hell.”

I recently read this in a Sunday School lesson. As a protestant I’d ask for a catholic’s opinon on this statement. I know its simplistic but is it the true basic’s of your faith or a complete misrepresentation?

Actually it sounds like a pretty good description of the Jansenist heresy, which was around in the 17th-18th centuries and was strongly condemned by the Catholic Church.