Are there secrets locked away in Vatican vaults?

[Caldera]

I can try to prevent it by shouting at them, maybe they’ll hear me, likely they won’t, or aren’t strong enough to keep themselves from falling anyway.

Maybe that’s God’s scripted plan?

God created us with free will, and allows us to make our own choices, good and bad. He knows all the events of our lives, good and bad, but he doesn’t actively make them all happen, or actively wish or will them all to happen.

So in that sense it’s not scripted.

There has to be a genuine free will for us to choose. If God knows what we will do in the future, then how can we believe we don’t live a scripted life?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I suggest that we start up another thread, because:

1. This is going seriously off topic.
2. The whole “we don’t have free will if God knows what we will do in the future” has been done to death on other thread. Search and ye shall find them.

 

[epostle]

Why does the Church withheld information such as the fatima letters?

Me and my freinds also speculate that there might be other secrets locked away.

Also, are there any other biblical narritives that we are not aware of, that the Church theologions have in there possesion, but do not wish to show people?

I have a suspicion you may have run across some of Fr. Gruner’s
massive misinformation campaign, so correct me if I am wrong. He operates the Fatima Crusader Apostolate. He is a suspended and defiant priest. One of his lies he propagates is the with-holding of the Secret of Fatima. To put it bluntly, he called Sr. Lucia a liar. Same with the Pope.

Close inspection of his pious looking Fatima Crusader Magazine reveals radical traditionalism, petitions to the Vatican, and basically induces voluntary doubt on Church authority which can lead to spiritual blindness. (CCC2088)

Vatican approved web site on Fatima
fatimafamily.org/index.html

PAPAL CONSECRATIONS TO THE IMMACULATE HEART ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/CONSECRA.HTM

Fr. Gruner and His Media Apostolates*
catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=3441

Canon Law and Fr. Gruner’s Suspension a divines**
catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=4086

Statement on Father Nicholas Gruner
catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=5140

Fr. Gruner is a cult leader, and powerful enough to fool even the most devout of Catholics. I personally know of an actively pro-life physician and a daily communicant who is a Gruneroid. Be careful, some Gruneroids are brainwashed.

Fr. Gruner has a web site, a TV show, and a printing press operating in Fort Erie, Ontario, Canada, and produces truckloads of literature to be exported around the world. Bishop Wimbley of the Diocese of St. Catherines is painfully aware. Catholics should be urged to cancel their subscriptions and the litter at the back of the church needs to be given to the priest for disposal.

I wrote an article 2 years ago on dealing with Gruneroids, let me know if you want me to post it.

 

[freesoulhope]

Please extrapolate.

If God saw it, then he is not reponsible for creating our actions.
If God authored are actions, then, We are not responsible for actions that have been pre-written; that does not seem to be very just.

I might see a future choice that you will make, but i am seeing “you” in the future making that choice; even though “you” in the past are not aware of that choice, it is still you, exercising that free choice. I have a future, and i am in that future, even though for me now, it is not actualised, it doesn’t cease to be me on the account that it has not happened yet. Logically, If there is no future, then there is nothing for me to move into. We are constantly moving in to the future, therefore the future must be real in some shape or form.

It would seem that, even though to us, we are making many choices, if I am a timeless God looking at the finite, you have aready lived and died and made one choice, yet, because i am timeless, I am not affected by the “arrow” of time. This means that you could live and die many times, but for me it could always be the first time, because i am not in time; therefore time would meaningless to me.

In the bible, it says how people will be astonished by the fact that the future has not happened yet, yet it has already happened and become the past. It may be the case that you are already a saint in heaven, even though you haven’t Got there yet, because in a very real sense for you, it has not happened; but for God it has already happened, because he is not subject to time, time is a servent to God.

peace.

 

[freesoulhope]

I

I wrote an article 2 years ago on dealing with Gruneroids, let me know if you want me to post it.

No, i have not heard of the Gruneroids, but I’d be happy to see what you Got.

 

[epostle]

Although Fr. Gruner’s teachings are erroneous, (Fatima Crusader Magazine)he still bears the permanent mark of ordination. Speaking against him as a person is wrong, and will only inflame defensiveness to Gruneroids you wish to help.

Code of Cannon Law: 212 They [Christ’s faithful] have the right, indeed at times the duty, in keeping with their knowledge, competence and position, to manifest to the sacred Pastors their views on matters which concern the good of the Church. They have the right also to make their views known to others of Christ’s faithful, but in doing so they must always respect the integrity of faith and morals, show due reverence to the Pastors and take into account both the common good and the dignity of individuals.

Here are suggestions as to how to effectively aid friends and family members who have been infected by the virus of dissention. Two things must be kept in mind at all times. Good devout Catholics are the usual targets for this particular infection. Those who follow Fr. Gruner are not bad Catholics. They are good devout Catholics who have been misled by powerful propaganda and trickery. Secondly, it is important to maintain the dignity of the person in your engagement.

Some background on Fr. Gruner and his apostolate can be found
here:unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/FATHER%20NICHOLAS%20GRUNER.html

The above web site gives a comprehensive background on Fr. Gruner. Much of this article has been borrowed from www.sspx-cult.com

In presenting a brief outline of Grunerism, we neither defend nor criticize these beliefs. It is not necessary for you to agree or disagree with any of Fr. Gruner’s beliefs in order to be successful in rescuing a Gruneroid. You only need to understand these beliefs.

Belief #1: The world is in a mess and disordered. There is a void of true leadership.

Belief #2: The best way to get out of the mess is to follow the requests of Our Lady of Fatima and we will have the “Answers”.

Belief #3: The Catholic Church has a God-given Mission to be His Official “Authority” with Official “Answers” for the human race by being obedient to Our Lady of Fatima.

Belief #4: The Catholic Church has been sidetracked from its God-given Mission by the changes brought about after Vatican Council II, held in the 1960’s.

Belief #5: The Church, as it existed before Vatican II, had the “Answers of Our Lady of Fatima” in her bossom.In fact, the Teachings of the Church before Vatican II did not change. So therefore, because Fr. Gruner makes changes to the “Answers”, the “Answers” are no longer the Teachings of the Church, but they are now Fr. Gruner’s Teachings.

Belief #6: The Pope can make a mistake, and proof of this is that he is directly responsible for the changes in the Catholic Church, which have sidetracked the Church from its God-given Mission, to consecrate Russia to Her Immaculate Heart.

Belief #7: Since Vatican Council II was a “Pastoral” Council, it was not infallible, and could include mistakes. In fact, Vatican II does contain mistakes that are directly responsible for sidetracking the Church from its God-given Mission.

Belief #8: The mistakes the Pope is making are not accidental, but come from the mistakes in Vatican II itself. Therefore, as long as the Pope is following Vatican II, we can’t trust the Pope.

Belief #9: We can’t trust the Pope, but God has given us Our Lady of Fatima whom we can trust. Fr. Gruner is our God-given “Authority” and is God’s Official teacher and interpreter of “Fatima” because Fatima can’t be wrong therefore he can’t be wrong either.

Belief #10: the Church persecutes Fr. Gruner because he is so outspoken.

Belief #11: Church bureaucrats have mistreated Sr. Lucia.

Belief #12: Fr. Gruner is not suspended from all priestly duties.

Belief #13: Instead of revealing The Third Secret, the Church supplanted it with a fake, and put it on the Vatican web site.

Belief #14: Russia has not been properly consecrated by all the Bishops to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.Fr. Gruner has convinced his followers that if one wants to remain loyal to God, they have to follow his version of Our Lady of Fatima because the Church has made mistakes and persecutes him. That is the proof of his loyalty to Our Lady of Fatima.

These are the basic beliefs held by Fr. Gruner. All these beliefs together form a complete belief system. Some principles to keep in mind: Do everything you can to gain the confidence of the Gruner supporter you wish to rescue.Try to get the Gruneroid to see the unfairness of spending so much energy pointing to someone’s mistakes, and never recognizing the good they have done.Try to convince the Gruneroid that while there always is some black and white, the world is never as black and white as they would like to paint it.Try to convince the Gruneroid that they have stopped thinking for themselves, and have let Fr. Gruner think for them. As you try to rescue a Fr. Gruner supporter

 

[Caldera]

Epostle:

I have a suspicion you may have run across some of Fr. Gruner’s
massive misinformation campaign, so correct me if I am wrong. He operates the Fatima Crusader Apostolate. He is a suspended and defiant priest. One of his lies he propagates is the with-holding of the Secret of Fatima. To put it bluntly, he called Sr. Lucia a liar. Same with the Pope.

Close inspection of his pious looking Fatima Crusader Magazine reveals radical traditionalism, petitions to the Vatican, and basically induces voluntary doubt on Church authority which can lead to spiritual blindness. (CCC2088)

Vatican approved web site on Fatima
fatimafamily.org/index.html

PAPAL CONSECRATIONS TO THE IMMACULATE HEART ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/CONSECRA.HTM

Fr. Gruner and His Media Apostolates*
catholicculture.org/docs/…fm?recnum=3441

Canon Law and Fr. Gruner’s Suspension a divines**
catholicculture.org/docs/…fm?recnum=4086

Statement on Father Nicholas Gruner
catholicculture.org/docs/…fm?recnum=5140

Fr. Gruner is a cult leader, and powerful enough to fool even the most devout of Catholics. I personally know of an actively pro-life physician and a daily communicant who is a Gruneroid. Be careful, some Gruneroids are brainwashed.

Fr. Gruner has a web site, a TV show, and a printing press operating in Fort Erie, Ontario, Canada, and produces truckloads of literature to be exported around the world. Bishop Wimbley of the Diocese of St. Catherines is painfully aware. Catholics should be urged to cancel their subscriptions and the litter at the back of the church needs to be given to the priest for disposal.

I wrote an article 2 years ago on dealing with Gruneroids, let me know if you want me to post it.

Not sure if i care what outsiders think with this apparition. I spent well over 10 months accepting it, (back in 1996) and going to 10 first saturday masses while going through the whole routine of praying the rosary, meditating on the mysteries, etc. only to find an intense spiritual love that is unparalled outside of the Catholic Church.

Any outsider can criticize all they want, but the fact is, is that there is something genuine to it. My own issues go way deeper than this, but at least i can testify to the vailidity of this particular apparition from my own experience, for whatever it’s worth.

 

[epostle]

1. The Gruneroid may react quickly, without thinking and with great emotion, to any attempt to rescue him/her from the influence of Grunerism. Do your best to reassure the supporter that you mean no harm and are a “friend”.
2. The Gruneroid may immediately judge anything you say as an attack on Our Lady of Fatima. Do your best to remain focused and level-headed, and try to reassure the supporter that you are not attacking, and that you are merely asking about certain “issues” that you are curious about.
3. The Gruneroid may not answer your questions right away, but may instead go to another Gruneroid for “Answers”, which the supporter will bring back to you. Try to avoid this from happening by insisting that the Gruneroid think for themselves, rather than letting Fr. Gruner or some other follower think for him/her. Otherwise, you will end up in a dialog with extreme traditionalists, instead of with the friend or loved one you are trying to rescue.
4. The Gruneroid may resist any attempt to convince them that the Fr. Gruner is in error, simply due to a sort of psychological “inertia”, for lack of a better word. In other words, most people don’t like to admit that they are wrong, or worse still, that they have been duped or “brainwashed” by anyone. For this reason alone, a member of a group like Gruneroids will resist anyone telling them that basically, they’ve been misled by Fr. Gruners teachings.

I have presented you with some strategies that you can use when trying to rescue a Gruneroid from the control of Fr. Gruner’s teachings. The main danger of Grunerism is it leads to violating the First Commandment which could lead to spiritual blindness. CCC#2088-9 Sometimes all you can do is pray.Here are some points that might come in handy. Grunerism encourages the signing of a petition to the Vatican. Ask to see it. A Gruneroid will be more than happy to oblige. (This old petition has since been re-worded when I first wrote this)

 

[epostle]

PETITION TO THE VATICAN

The Sacred Constitution of the Church affirms that the Faithful have the right and indeed, the obligation to make their spiritual needs known to their pastors. Both Vatican I and the Council of Lyons have solemnly declared our right to have recourse to Your Holiness in matters pertaining to our spiritual welfare.
First, neither the 1st or 2nd Council of Lyons, or Vatican I make any mention of this. You can ask them to show where in the official Church canons of these councils where the very concept exists. Secondly, notice the code of canon law, #212, at the top of this article. The opening paragraph of this petition is a twisted version of the same law.

Mindful first and always of my duty to Jesus and Mary, I come before Your Holiness now in deepest reverence and respect to beg that you will:

1. Publicly release the Third Secret of Fatima as Our Lady asked to be done, letting the Faithful have full and open access to Her words of hope and warning.The Third Secret has been published, and is found at vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.htmlThe original Third Secret is published there Sr. Lucia’s original handwriting, with a translation. For the Church to produce a fake, or to force Sr. Lucia to write up a false one, is just incomprehensible.

1. Lift the command of silence imposed by your predecessor on Sister Lucia, the last remaining seer of Fatima, permitting her the freedom to speak openly to the world. There is no evidence of a command of silence as Sr. Lucia has submitted to many interviews and written memoirs and books and has publicly refuted Fr. Gruner’s claims.
2. Consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary in the solemn and public manner commanded by Our Lord and Our Lady, acknowledging that it is “by this means” only that Russia will be converted and peace given to the world. This has been done, the Pope sent delegates to Sr. Lucia explaining how it was done, and Sr. Lucia said it was done properly. Copies of Sr. Lucia’s letters are found here:ewtn.com/expert/answers/Fatima1984.htmmore information on the verification of the consecration to Russia are found here:catholicdoors.com/faq/qu26.htm

from the above web site, a transcription of an interview with Sr. Lucia:
Q. 7. Is there any heavenly sign that supports that the Consecration of Russia was made and accepted according to the request of Our Lady of Fatima?
A. You may consider the following as a heavenly sign.
In March, 1985, one year after the Consecration of March, 1984, President Chernenko died. Mikhial Gorbachev became the new President of Russia. He passed the rights to freedom of the press and freedom of religion. Resulting from this, communism fell. Fifteen republics were freed from communism, this putting an end to the Warsaw Pact. Shortly after, the Berlin wall came down.

It should also be noted that the Consecration of March 25, 1984, was exactly 100 years to the day when Pope Leo XIII had a vision that Satan was granted 100 years to try and destroy the Catholic Church.
Shortly after the Consecration of 1984, on May 13, the Feast of Fatima, an unexplained explosion in Severomorski destroyed 80% of Russia’s missiles. On December 13 of the same year, another unexplained explosion destroyed Russia’s largest ammunition base in Siberia. This was the end of Russia as a superpower.

Double-Response to Robert Sungenis and Christopher Ferrara
lumengentleman.com/content.asp?id=56A

(Christopher Ferrara writes for the Fatima Crusader Magazine)

 

[LilyM]

Maybe that’s God’s scripted plan?

No - again, in my example I didn’t script or plan for the person to fall from the ledge. It could only be called my script for them if I BOTH placed them on the ledge AND either pushed them off, made them trip over and fall off or talked them into jumping or something similar.

It all has to be deliberate and all done by me with no free choice from the other, only reaction, for it to be a script. Human beings are not pure reaction, are they? We are capable of independent logic, self-analysis, self-control and all the rest.

In my case I simply saw what was happening and could predict with reasonable certainty what would happen.

See, knowing that something will happen to a person is different from making it happen to them or planning that it will happen to them (which is what a script is).

There has to be a genuine free will for us to choose. If God knows what we will do in the future, then how can we believe we don’t live a scripted life?

Again, foreseeing is NOT the same thing as planning or making something happen or ‘scripting’ for it to happen. God knows what we will do, but he does not literally force us to do it.

Another example - I see the my child still awake at 2am and I say to them ‘you’re going to be very tired tomorrow’. I know, being wiser than they, what will happen. Does that mean I made them tired or planned for them to be tired, or scripted for them to be tired? Of course not.

 

[NMJenny]

Epostle, the three links about Fr. Gruner in your original post about him are no longer working. I’m sure the information you were trying to link to would be very helpful to people who have run into Fr. Gruner’s “messages” without realizing how irregular his status is–maybe you can update the links…

 

[Unitas]

Fortunately Dan Brown broke in and revealed them all…

HAHA, yeah. Those vaults are where us Catholics keep the albino assassin monk cloning machines.

 

[Caldera]

Again, foreseeing is NOT the same thing as planning or making something happen or ‘scripting’ for it to happen. God knows what we will do, but he does not literally force us to do it.

Do you know how hard it is to believe that? Either he has his plan for us, (scripted) or life is random and causes us all these problems because of it… (i.e. because we are not God, and we make decisions based on the limited knowledge we have, and because of the weaknesses for sin we have, etc.)

 

[sodak]

I think it’s easy to see. When my kids were smaller, they would want something that I didn’t want them to have, I would tell them “No”, and they would toddle on over to it. As a parent, I knew what they were going to do, but (in some cases) let them do it and disciplined them afterwards. They had to learn the ramifications of their actions.

You can see it in their eyes…

God knows what we are going to do also, even after he says “No”. We are still free to respond in our own way. Just because he knows the outcome doesn’t mean we don’t have free will.

Back to Fatima, I still remain unconvinced. The 3rd letter relating to JP2’s assassination attempt just doesn’t fit in my mind.

 

[Petergee]

IMO the reason Our Lady asked the children not to reveal the secrets until after 1960, is that if the faithful as a whole had known in 1917 the horrors that were to be visited on the Church by the atheist regimes of Communism and Nazism - tens of millions of laity, priests and bishops tortured and murdered, the Pope himself near-fatally attacked (we know now that the USSR authored the attack despite its attempts to make it appear the work of moslem fundamentalists) - then many would probably have given way to despair.

 

[epostle]

Epostle, the three links about Fr. Gruner in your original post about him are no longer working. I’m sure the information you were trying to link to would be very helpful to people who have run into Fr. Gruner’s “messages” without realizing how irregular his status is–maybe you can update the links…

Mu files are old and disty. Here are some fresh links. I should have opened a new thread. DUH. I plead senility.

Yes Virginia, Fr. Nicholas is Suspended
catholic-legate.com/articles/gruner2.html

Catholic Answers’ Jimmy Akin Confused about Fatima
catholicintl.com/epologetics/dialogs/marysaints/akin-fatima-print.htm

Fr. Gruner, Fátima Crusader, Catholic Family News
ewtn.com/expert/answers/fr_gruner.htm

MEETING WITH SR MARIA LUCIA
Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone,
Secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith

“Everything has been published, there are no more secrets.” To those who are talking and writing about new revelations, she says: “There is not a grain of truth in them. If I had had new revelations, I would not have spoken of them to anyone, but would have told them directly to the Holy Father!”. Sr. Lucia
ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFLUCIA.HTM

Letters of Sr. Lucia Santos, OCD on the Consecration

ewtn.com/expert/answers/Fatima1984.htm

Canon Law and Fr. Gruner’s Suspension a divinis
catholic-legate.com/articles/gruner1.html

 

[repo_man]

There has to be a genuine free will for us to choose. If God knows what we will do in the future, then how can we believe we don’t live a scripted life?

no! no! i travel all across the whole of the internet and have yet to find one forum where i don’t get into a heated debate over epistemic determinism.

simply put, god lives outside of time and sees all in an everpresent eternal moment. god knowing what happens in the future is no different than us knowing what is in the past. it happened, but it didn’t have to. to that one objects “but a being that is omniscient and omnipotent, who created the whole of existence clearly made our lives. it’s not just the foreknowledge, it’s also the fact he created us knowing what would happen.”

i reply, god simply created the means by which we live. he permits our choices and our ability to choose them. he only knows what happens because he has already seen it happen. he didn’t make it happen. he created the universe and that’s how things played out. as aquinas said, our ability to reason is evidence of our free will. i can’t fathom the idea it’s just an illusion. god already knows whether i’m in hell or heaven. it was determined by me though (you know what i mean, don’t go all pelagian on me). if god sends people to hell, writing them evil sins to send them there, doesn’t that make god a sinner? aiding sin is a sin itself, and forcing someone to sin puts the burden on god, not us. for a mortal sin to be valid it needs to be committed with deliberate and complete consent. that goes out the window if we’re forced into it. it turns god into a sinner, thus he ceases to exist. and no one goes to hell because people are no longer responsible for their actions. i think that’s a hell of a lot more confusing than the co-existence of free will and foreknowledge.:whacky:

Fortunately Dan Brown broke in and revealed them all…

 

[patrick457]

HAHA, yeah. Those vaults are where us Catholics keep the albino assassin monk cloning machines.

Just next door to it is this bank vault containing the Church’s huge wealth (where the Jesuits/Opus Dei can dump the money they just pillaged) and this computer containing the names of all Protestants. Across it is the ‘Fatima Fabrication Room’ where brainwashing machines, fake Sr. Lucias and fake Third Secret envelopes are placed. A team of specialized monks keep the REAL Sr. Lucia under custody here (The one who died was actually a clone) so she wouldn’t say anything about the Third Secret and thus ruin the really really bad Church who kept secret Jesus’ true identity, the truth about Mary Magdalene, the Church’s huge bank account, the assassinations, the fact that Pope Pius V ordered chicken and fries the day he wrote Quo Primum for many many years until the likes of Jack Chick, Dan Brown et al. exposed her for what she is.

 

[estesbob]

Not before writing them all in the first place. Hey e-bob!

He to you too. I thought maybe you had gotted lost in the chamber of secrets!

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

The Vatican Library has rather boring stuff in it from what I’ve heard. It’s got financial documents for the Roman Archdiocese and the Vatican Bank dating back a few hundred years, gnostic gospels that anyone can get access to who has access to the World Wide Web, it’s got different translations of church letters and documents, writings of the Church Fathers which are also available on the Internet, correspondence between Rome and the other provinces, etc. Boring stuff.

Oh, and according to some Adventists and JWs, it’s where we keep the list of true Christians who we’re gonna persecute during the Great Tribulation.** **