Are These Allowed in the Ordinary Form of the Mass?

[catholic03]

Hello

I know that the Ordinary Form of the Mass may be celebrated ad orientem.Do priests need permission to do this?

Also, I am wondering if the following vestments are permitted to be used in the Ordinary Form:

The Amice.
The Maniple.
The Biretta.

Is permission needed to use these in the Ordinary Form, or can a priest do as he wishes?

I also know that the Ordinary Form can be celebrated in Latin. Does this need permission?

If the OF is celebrated ad orientem, in Latin, with the above listed vestments and using the Roman Canon, it will look similar to the Extraordinary Form. I therefore ask, is it possible for a priest to celebrate the OF like this without any permissions needed from his bishop?

I ask this purely out of interest.

God bless.

 

[edward_george1]

The rubrics presume the new Mass is being done ad orientem, and Rome has said so. We’ve been celebrating most of our live stream masses ad orientem, since that’s how the rectory chapel is set up.

Tonight, I wore an amice and biretta for Mass. Occasionally we’ll wear maniples too. If you look in the vesting prayers in the Missal, you’ll see that the amice is still in there. The maniple is not, but nothing prevents wearing it. The biretta fell out of use, but nothing forbids using it.

-Fr ACEGC

 

[catholic03]

Thank you, Father.

I myself have never been to a Mass celebrated according to the Ordinary Form that is celebrated ad orientem, in Latin, or with those vestments. Every Mass I have been to is celebrated versus populum and in the vernacular.

It would be beautiful to see, and one day I hope to.

I would be very grateful if you, Father (or anyone else) was able to provide a link so that I could watch an Ordinary Form Mass celebrated in this way.

Thank you for your time and help.

 

[Usige]

I’ve worn an amice since I was instituted as a lector. Really helps keep from having to launder the alb as often (and associated pressing the pleats )

The GIRM for the current missal actually states that an amice should be worn unless the alb essentially has an amice incorporated in it’s design.

GIRM 119 - All who wear an alb should use a cincture and an amice unless, due to the form of the alb, they are not needed.

It further states when an amice should be used.

GIRM 336 - Before the alb is put on, should this not completely cover the ordinary clothing at the neck, an amice should be put on.

In my diocese the bishop has no issue with the use of the biretta in an ordinary form mass, but he has asked that the maniple only be used when offering the mass in the Extraordinary Form. I’ve never asked him why.

 

[JSRG]

Thank you, Father.

I myself have never been to a Mass celebrated according to the Ordinary Form that is celebrated ad orientem, in Latin, or with those vestments. Every Mass I have been to is celebrated versus populum and in the vernacular.

There’s at least one priest in my diocese that does his Ordinary Form masses ad orientem, though he does them in the vernacular. He saves Latin for the Extraordinary Form.

Another parish I know of does an Ordinary Form mass in Latin, but this is only for one of their Friday weekday masses, not any Sunday masses.

There might be other parishes that do the OF with ad orientem and/or in the Latin, though–there’s a lot of parishes I haven’t been to.

 

[Viaetveritasetvita]

Holy Mass can be celebrated ad orientem and in Latin at the choice of the priest, and no dispensation is required.
Unfortunately some prelates seem to be adverse to this though, even when it is the universal Church’s Law.
The pontifical universities in Rome, sadly stopped teaching their seminarians in Latin following the Second Vatican Council, but there is hope because many young seminarians today are learning Latin and going back to the old rite! But not in New Zealand

In relation to the vestments, the Roman Missal’s list of vestments, the amice is brought up but it states that its use is not obligatory. The maniple and Biretta are not mentioned but their use was never abrogated and priests can use them in the NO.

Benedicat Te Omnipotens Deus.

 

[catholic03]

The pontifical universities in Rome, sadly stopped teaching their seminarians in Latin following the Second Vatican Council, but there is hope because many young seminarians today are learning Latin and going back to the old rite! But not in New Zealand

Well, I too live in New Zealand where the Latin Mass is offered in more than a few places.

The Dioceses of Auckland, Hamilton, Palmerston North, Christchurch, and Dunedin all have the Latin Mass.

The Dioceses of Auckland and Christchurch have Latin Mass parishes run by the Fraternity of St Peter (FSSP) and the Sons of the Most Holy Redeemer (FSSR) respectively.

The Archdiocese of Wellington is the only Diocese here where the Latin Mass is not offered.

 

[Viaetveritasetvita]

Yes that is indeed correct, they certainly exist and Christchurch, in particular, Is wonderful because they have the mass daily. I was referring to the fact that the majority of current seminarians here are not taught Latin or the old rite. But on the bright side with wonderful societies like FSSP slowly growing in NZ, hopefully, their presence will increase.
I did enquire about our diocese a couple of years ago and their were a couple of Fathers who did celebrate but unfortunately due to illness in 2016, Wellington ceased to have them.

Benedicat Te Omnipotens Deus.

 

[catholic03]

I did enquire about our diocese a couple of years ago and their were a couple of Fathers who did celebrate but unfortunately due to illness in 2016, Wellington ceased to have them.

Yes, I have been searching and searching for any information about where to find the Latin Mass here in Wellington. Cardinal Dew did allocate a church for the Latin Mass after Pope Benedict’s summorum pontificum, but since 2016, as you say, the priest has been ill and so it is not celebrated here anymore. I really do want to attend, but the closest is in Palmerston North which is about 2 1/4 hours away by car.

I was referring to the fact that the majority of current seminarians here are not taught Latin or the old rite

Yes, that is true. However, I have a feeling that eventually there will be a Latin Mass parish in the Archdiocese. Maybe the FSSP will come here? Who knows…

 

[Cor_ad_Cor]

The only time any of the items you mention would require permission is when a bishop (such as one I was recently reading about) has restricted them in some way for his diocese or a religious order has been otherwise instructed by the superiors.

 

[Viaetveritasetvita]

I know it is funny that the capital city is one of the only places without them! I even calculated the distance of the Palmerston North parish from my home and it is nearly three hours, so I knew it wasn’t a possibility. It would be wonderful if the FSSP did come. Interestingly enough a Traditional Mass was celebrated at St Marys of the Angels last year, but I think it was a passing group.
In the meantime, we just have to be patient

Benedicat Te Omnipotens Deus

 

[catholic03]

I know it is funny that the capital city is one of the only places without them!

Yes, especially as it’s the only Archdiocese in the country.

Interestingly enough a Traditional Mass was celebrated at St Marys of the Angels last year, but I think it was a passing group.
In the meantime, we just have to be patient

Really? Maybe it will happen again this year. The 11am Sunday Mass at St Mary of the Angels is a very traditional Novus Ordo with a lot of Latin (although the main Canon is in English, but the Pater Noster and other parts are in Latin), incense, only male altar servers, beautiful vestments.

I hope the FSSP come to Wellington. Some cities, like Palmerston North and Dunedin just have diocesan Latin Mass every Sunday without needing a parish. Maybe that’s a possibility in Wellington.

I believe that both the Ordinary and Extraordinary Forms of the Mass are reverent and valid, but I may well find that I have a personal preference for the Extraordinary Form. I’ve already got a 1960 missal ready, and on YouTube I’ve been watching the EF celebrated by the FSSP.

By the way, the FSSP parish in Auckland livestreams Latin Mass everyday at 8am.

 

[Viaetveritasetvita]

I hope the FSSP come to Wellington. Some cities, like Palmerston North and Dunedin, just have diocesan Latin Mass every Sunday without needing a parish. Maybe that’s a possibility in Wellington.

Yes, that could work and be implemented straight away.
It is lovely that you watch mass from Auckland every day, I watch the extraordinary form from some beautiful parishes in England and the US.
Unfortunately, the mass I usually attend here, with all due respect is not the most reverent but there just isn’t much you can do about it. I do miss mass in Italy though, because along with the incredible architecture the faith is so tangible there! You must be picking up some Latin too

Benedicat Te Omnipotens Deus

 

[Tis_Bearself]

It’s fairly common to see priests in the USA here and there saying OF Mass in birettas.

If you want to see an OF ad orientem, Fr. Richard Heilman (who runs the US Grace Force prayer group and the Roman Catholic Man blog) says one daily at his parish, St. Mary of Pine Bluff in Wisconsin, USA, and his Masses are currently being live streamed and the videos put up on the web at least for a short time. He does not wear the biretta and I’m not sure about the other vestments, but he does say all his Masses ad orientem at a beautiful carved old-fashioned altar. Since he says Mass at 7:30 am US Central time, that would be like 12:30 am the next morning for you to watch in NZ, but you can watch a video of a past OF so you don’t have to stay up that late. Be sure to select a video of “NO Mass” with Fr Heilman, as Fr. Z also says TLM in Latin from that church so there are TLM videos up also.

https://stmarypinebluff.com/live-stream/

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

If the OF is celebrated ad orientem , in Latin, with the above listed vestments and using the Roman Canon, it will look similar to the Extraordinary Form. I therefore ask, is it possible for a priest to celebrate the OF like this without any permissions needed from his bishop?

Actually I am under impression one does not need permission from Bishop to celebrate EF either. Didn’t Summorum Pontificum allow it for every Priest?

 

[OraLabora]

If the OF is celebrated ad orientem , in Latin, with the above listed vestments and using the Roman Canon, it will look similar to the Extraordinary Form. I therefore ask, is it possible for a priest to celebrate the OF like this without any permissions needed from his bishop?

I’m more familiar with the conventual Mass of a Benedictine monastery. In such a setting, the abbot gets to decide the form of the liturgy and the permissible options.

In a diocesan setting, I would expect the priest does not need permission but he may have other limitations, such as the bishop requiring he celebrate a certain number of vernacular Masses to meet the needs of the parish, and with the restriction on the number of Masses that can be said on a Sunday, he may not be able to celebrate another Mass in Latin. More likely he may get permission to celebrate in Latin occasionally. If the parish has enough priests, this may not matter but parishes with an overabundance of priests are not, well overabundant these days. Fr. Edward might be able to tell you what the situation is for a Latin OF Mass.

I myself have never been to a Mass celebrated according to the Ordinary Form that is celebrated ad orientem , in Latin, or with those vestments. Every Mass I have been to is celebrated versus populum and in the vernacular.

I’ve been to OF Mass both ad orientem and in Latin, Latin but facing the people, and in a mix of Latin (and Greek) and the vernacular (French). The latter is at the abbey I’m an oblate of. The propers and ordinary are all sung in Gregorian chant, the rest in French plainchant. It isn’t ad orientem because it wouldn’t work. There’s usually 15 or more priest-monks concelebrating and it would be very strange with the configuration of the church. Plus Benedictines tend to favour the community aspect (and this before VII). Many of their churches prior to VII were configured so that the Mass was celebrated versus populum for the monastic community, that is the priest faces the monks. To visitors in the nave, it would have seemed facing away from the people.

I’ve been to sung OF Mass all in Latin both VP and AO near Montreal (Benedictine nuns), Monte Cassino ( abbey in Italy), and also to a private OF Mass in Latin at the abbots chapel in our abbey, AO (where I read the epistle in Latin).

They exist. I think you’re more likely to find them in religious orders.

 

[27lw]

You might like this from St. John Cantius in Chicago. It’s ordinary form with Latin and I believe it is ad orientam.
Their liturgies are heavenly.

 

[Weserthy]

catholic03:

If the OF is celebrated ad orientem , in Latin, with the above listed vestments and using the Roman Canon, it will look similar to the Extraordinary Form. I therefore ask, is it possible for a priest to celebrate the OF like this without any permissions needed from his bishop?

Actually I am under impression one does not need permission from Bishop to celebrate EF either. Didn’t Summorum Pontificum allow it for every Priest?

Technically this is correct. Priests do not need permission to celebrate the ordinary form ad orientem, nor do they need permission to celebrate the extraordinary form. However, this does not stop some bishops from attempting to ban such practices in their dioceses. But when they do so, they are overstepping their bounds and authority as bishops. There is, unfortunately, not much priests can do in such a situation. They have recourse to Rome but it would likely be a lengthy process and most priests would probably not attempt it since it leaves them vulnerable to retaliation from their bishops in the meantime.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

That is almost too beautiful… I personally yearn for a day where Mass will return to be primarily celebrated Ad Orientem much more often than it is. In my country I wasn’t able to find anyone who does it (except EF ofc).

There is, unfortunately, not much priests can do in such a situation. They have recourse to Rome but it would likely be a lengthy process and most priests would probably not attempt it since it leaves them vulnerable to retaliation from their bishops in the meantime.

That is super sad. I don’t get why would Bishops do that either way.

 

[phil19034]

catholic03:

If the OF is celebrated ad orientem , in Latin, with the above listed vestments and using the Roman Canon, it will look similar to the Extraordinary Form. I therefore ask, is it possible for a priest to celebrate the OF like this without any permissions needed from his bishop?

Actually I am under impression one does not need permission from Bishop to celebrate EF either. Didn’t Summorum Pontificum allow it for every Priest?

They don’t need permission. HOWEVER, they do need permission to pray more masses in a day than normally allowed to.

Let’s say a parish must have 3 Sunday masses to accommodate everyone who attends mass. In other words, having only 2 masses would not fit everyone.

In that situation, Father can’t simply change one Sunday Mass to Latin unless approx a 3rd of the parish is asking for it. In order to offer a Sunday Latin Mass, he would need to add a 4th mass.

If that 4th mass would cause the celebrating priest to go over his limit for the day, he would need the bishop’s permission.

NOTE: let’s say the parish offers 3 Sunday Masses a day, but could get by with one or two. Then, Father could change one mass to Latin. But if he doesn’t have the support from a large enough group within the parish, he could face backlash, esp if someone complains to the bishop. Because, the priest is first and foremost there to feed his sheep. A priest can’t force his person preferences on the people.

I hope this makes sense.

God Bless & Happy Easter