Are these Baptisms valid?

[applesofgold]

Friends have recently told be of novel ways that the priest involved family and friends at recent baptisms they attended in a catholic church. Various combinations of the following occurred.
A: The Godmother (or other lay person) poured the water on the child’s head while the priest said the words “I baptize you …….”
B: Other lay people ( sometimes more than one) pour the water while everyone says the words “I baptize you…….” Together.
C: Lay people invited to come forward and “bless” the child by making the sign of the cross on him/her with either the Oil of Catechumens or the Chrism.
It seems like the pastor is going to extreme lengths to make everybody feel included, but does it go so far as to bring the validity of the sacrament into question?
I have submitted this question for an apologist, but perhaps others may have a view.

 

[dans0622]

Hello,

The first two scenarios are certainly invalid. The one who says the words has to pour the water in order for the words to make sense ("I baptize you…). The last scenario is silly but not relevant to validity since the pouring of water and the Trinitarian formula is the Sacrament, not the anointings.

You really should immediately bring this to the attention of the authorities in your diocese or whatever the diocese is in which this is said to be occuring. It is very serious!

Dan

 

[1ke]

Hello,

The first two scenarios are certainly invalid. The one who says the words has to pour the water in order for the words to make sense ("I baptize you…). The last scenario is silly but not relevant to validity since the pouring of water and the Trinitarian formula is the Sacrament, not the anointings.

**You really should immediately bring this to the attention of the authorities in your diocese or whatever the diocese is in which this is said to be occuring. It is very serious!
**
Dan

Ditto.

This is quite serious

 

[Bookcat]

Yes very serious – they would contact the Diocese where it took place.

In the case of invalid baptism --a baptism needs to occur.

 

[Bookcat]

The same person who pours the water needs to say the “I baptize you in the name of the Father…”

 

[Phemie]

One just has to ask, “What the heck are they teaching in the seminary these days?!?!?!”

Just to tell you how serious this is, about a decade ago the Diocese of Saint-Jerome in Québec declared invalid close to 300 Baptisms conferred in the parish of Pointe-Calumet, because the lay person mandated by the bishop to confer Baptism had been having the dads pour the water while she spoke the words. It went on for years until a knowledgeable grandmother in attendance spotted the error and called the Bishop.

It speaks volumes about the state of religion in what used to be the most Catholic place in Canada that nobody before then knew enough about the sacrament of Baptism to notice that things weren’t being done correctly.

 

[anp1215]

How awful. The ramifications are enormous! If these kids are going on to have their other Sacraments, this renders them all invalid (I’m pretty sure). Of course, through no fault of their own, but invalid nonetheless!

 

[johnnykins]

Hello,

The first two scenarios are certainly invalid. The one who says the words has to pour the water in order for the words to make sense ("I baptize you…). The last scenario is silly but not relevant to validity since the pouring of water and the Trinitarian formula is the Sacrament, not the anointings.

You really should immediately bring this to the attention of the authorities in your diocese or whatever the diocese is in which this is said to be occuring. It is very serious!

Dan

I think the second scenario is probably valid as long as the person pouring says the formula of Baptism. If, however, the lay person pouring is not saying the words, then I would agree.

In any event, this needs to go to the Bishop pronto…

 

[txstm]

So what happens to someone who dies thinking their (or their child’s) babtism was valid? Are they damned through no fault of their own?

 

[1ke]

So what happens to someone who dies thinking their (or their child’s) babtism was valid? Are they damned through no fault of their own?

We have no idea. We trust God, who is both just and merciful.

Are they damned through no fault of their own?

We would certainly hope not. Again, we must leave it to God because we have no way to know with certainty.

 

[dans0622]

I think the second scenario is probably valid as long as the person pouring says the formula of Baptism. If, however, the lay person pouring is not saying the words, then I would agree.

In any event, this needs to go to the Bishop pronto…

Hello,

Yes, you are correct. I did not read that closely enough.

I also should point out that even if this and the last scenario result in valid baptisms, it’s all illicit and should cease at once.

Dan

 

[thewanderer]

So what happens to someone who dies thinking their (or their child’s) babtism was valid? Are they damned through no fault of their own?

It is quite possible that they would be a perfect candidate for baptism by desire.