Are these infallible Statements?

  • Thread starter Thread starter matt1917
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
M

matt1917

Guest
Pope Eugenius IV, A.D. 1431-1447, at Council of Florence *** allegedly INFALLIBLE***: allegedly Ex cathedra: "It [the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that none of those outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but neither Jews, nor heretics and schismatics, can become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels”

[Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life they have been added to the Church; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one,

whatever almsgiving he has practised, even if he has shed [his] blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church." (Cantate Domino, A.D. 1442)

I’ve also been told from radical traditionalist Catholics that the prevatican II theology manuals said that it is mortal sin to attend worship services that are heretical and they sharply accuse Pope Bennedict for taking of His shoes, facing east, and praying with muslims in a mosque.

Does anyone have ideas how to refute this if it comes up?
 
matt1917 said:
Pope Eugenius IV, A.D. 1431-1447, at Council of Florence *** allegedly INFALLIBLE***: allegedly Ex cathedra: "It [the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that none of those outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but neither Jews, nor heretics and schismatics, can become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels”

[Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life they have been added to the Church; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one,

whatever almsgiving he has practised, even if he has shed [his] blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church." (Cantate Domino, A.D. 1442)

I’ve also been told from radical traditionalist Catholics that the prevatican II theology manuals said that it is mortal sin to attend worship services that are heretical and they sharply accuse Pope Bennedict for taking of His shoes, facing east, and praying with muslims in a mosque.

Does anyone have ideas how to refute this if it comes up?
Click to expand...
What you have quoted is the infallible teaching of the Catholic Church. Benedict should not have done what he had done because it is a mortal sin to participate in the religious worship of false religions. God bless you.
 
ready said:
What you have quoted is the infallible teaching of the Catholic Church. Benedict should not have done what he had done because it is a mortal sin to participate in the religious worship of false religions. God bless you.
Click to expand...
Has the Church changed what she previously taught?

If so, can the Church teach error?
 
matt1917 said:
Has the Church changed what she previously taught?

If so, can the Church teach error?
Click to expand...
The Church has not – and cannot – change doctrine/dogma. No pope can change doctrine/dogma. There ya go.
 
trevorhall said:
The Church has not – and cannot – change doctrine/dogma. No pope can change doctrine/dogma. There ya go.
Click to expand...
well, i guess we have a problem then. the church certainly does not teach this anymore. well, in regards to schismatics and heretics anyways.
 
This is going to get bad, isn’t it? Why do I feel like crying, Lord have mercy.
 
i think we need to know if this is actually ex-cathedra or not. it doesn’t give much room for the ignorance clause contained in the catechism. i retract my earlier statement, i don’t think it has changed, rather just expanded a bit
 
Thanks for the sites. Still confused myself but do not believe that “ready”, or any other poster should say that Pope Benedict committed mortal sin. This should definitely be against Forum Rules.

And, if I read the sites correctly, no mortal sin was committed by anyone at the service.

I love you Pope Benedict !
 
matt1917 said:
I’ve also been told from radical traditionalist Catholics that the prevatican II theology manuals said that it is mortal sin to attend worship services that are heretical and they sharply accuse Pope Bennedict for taking of His shoes, facing east, and praying with muslims in a mosque.

Does anyone have ideas how to refute this if it comes up?
Click to expand...
It is my understanding that the 1917 Code of Canon Law promulgated by church authorities did contain a canon (a changeable church discipline) prohibiting Catholics from attending non-Catholic worship services and violating that canon while the 1917 Code was in effect was a mortal sin, the sin of willfully disobeying church authorities. However, that particular canon and the sin attached to its violation was abrogated when church authorities promulgated a new Code of Canon Law in 1983.
 
matt1917 said:
I’ve also been told from radical traditionalist Catholics that the prevatican II theology manuals said that it is mortal sin to attend worship services that are heretical and they sharply accuse Pope Bennedict for taking of His shoes, facing east, and praying with muslims in a mosque.
Click to expand...
Facing East for prayer is what Christians do. Muslims don’t face East when they pray. They face Mecca. So, Benedict XVI was praying like a Christian while he was in the mosque if he was praying facing East. In the mosque, he was praying to our Christian God. And there is no prohibition in Christianity against taking off our shoes before praying. When I lived in Hawaii everyone in the parish I went to would take off their shoes before entering to pray in adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. That’s because Hawaii has a lot of Asian culture influence, and taking shoes off before entering a house is standard in Asian culture.
 
The Church has always accepted that non-Catholics have entered heaven. What of Saint John the Baptist? According to Catholic belief Jesus, on Holy Saturday after his crucifixion, descended to the dead and brought the just among them into heaven. I would think that none of these people that Jesus brought to heaven at this point of time, were Catholics.
According to the conviction of Catholicism, it has been widely thought in the Church that Christ brought even Adam to heaven then, who of course was never a Catholic.
The statements provided in the opening post should be seen in terms of the actual teaching and belief of Catholicism. The “Catechism of the Catholic Church” repeats the statement “outside the Church there is no salvation,” then goes on to say that “this affirmation is not aimed at those who through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and His Church” (numbers 846-7 in the Catechism) The opening post provides statements of faith, but what does the Church actually make of them? The Church has always accepted that non-Catholics can be and are saved. Right from the beginning it has revered Saint John the Baptist as a great saint, who died before the birth of the Church, and it perfectly well accepts the words of Jesus on the cross to the good thief dying with Jesus, “this day you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43)
 
  1. Pope Benedict didn’t do anything wrong.
  2. Yes, it is a dogma, it just has to be understood in the sense that the Church understands it.
 
Pope Innocent III in the Lateran Council of AD 1215, Unam Sanctam, the Papal Bull of Pope Boniface VIII, 1302, and Pope Eugene IV’s Bull Cantate Domino, 1441 all refer to those who have rejected the true gospel, Pope Eugene IV makes the statement about the pagans, Jews, etc… so this classifies them like the Arians, Monophysites, Ebionites, who heard the message of Christ’s gospel. It is not talking about those who have not heard the gospel. The ones that these decrees are considering are those that have heard the message. If they had heard the message and obstinately stay outside the Church, they can not be saved. Notice that in this decree, just like the first two mentioned, the decree does not say, “Well, if those pagans and Jews, etc. have never heard of the gospel, they cannot be saved.” This is fully consistent with what the Church teaches now.

“By Faith it is to be firmly held that outside the Apostolic Roman Church none can achieve salvation. This is the only ark of salvation. He who does not enter into it will perish in the flood. Nevertheless, equally certainly it is to be held that those who suffer from invincible ignorance of the true religion, are not for this reason guilty in the eyes of the Lord. Now, then, who could presume in himself an ability to set the boundaries of such ignorance, taking into consideration the natural differences of peoples, land, native talents, and so many other factors.” (Pope Pius IX, Singulari Quidem, 1863 A.D.)

The Church has always regarded the baptism of non-Catholics as valid – and a valid baptism means you are, in some sense, in union with Christ through His Church. Further, Pope Clement (circa A.D… 95) affirmed that “those who repented for their sins, appeased God in praying and received salvation, even though they were aliens to God." Christ’s Church knew from the beginning that non-Catholics could be saved. Catholic Apologetics Today, 1986, Fr William G Most, p 145].

The “necessity of the Catholic Church for salvation” = no salvation without the Catholic Church; the doctrinal meaning of the phrase, means that whether they know it or not, salvation for anyone can come only through Christ’s Church. Christ offers the actual graces which can enable them to follow the natural moral law, and come home if they have the opportunity to so do.
 
angell1 said:
well, i guess we have a problem then. the church certainly does not teach this anymore. well, in regards to **schismatics and heretics **anyways.
Click to expand...
Nothing has changed on this. Anyone who dies a schismatic and/or heretic goes to Hell. Same teaching now as before. If they repent before they die they will be saved.
What do you think has changed?
 
mdgspencer said:
The Church has always accepted that non-Catholics have entered heaven
Click to expand...
. What of Saint John the Baptist? According to Catholic belief Jesus, on Holy Saturday after his crucifixion, descended to the dead and brought the just among them into heaven. I would think that none of these people that Jesus brought to heaven at this point of time, were Catholics.
According to the conviction of Catholicism, it has been widely thought in the Church that Christ brought even Adam to heaven then, who of course was never a Catholic.
The statements provided in the opening post should be seen in terms of the actual teaching and belief of Catholicism. The “Catechism of the Catholic Church” repeats the statement “outside the Church there is no salvation,” then goes on to say that “this affirmation is not aimed at those who through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and His Church” (numbers 846-7 in the Catechism) The opening post provides statements of faith, but what does the Church actually make of them? The Church has always accepted that non-Catholics can be and are saved. Right from the beginning it has revered Saint John the Baptist as a great saint, who died before the birth of the Church, and it perfectly well accepts the words of Jesus on the cross to the good thief dying with Jesus, “this day you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43)

Correction! No heretic enters heaven. Nothing unclean enters Heaven. It is true that the Gospel can be preached to the dead, but only those who embrace the fullness of truth (Catholicism) prior to their entry, enter Heaven:thumbsup:
 
matt1917 said:
"It [the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that none of those outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but neither Jews, nor heretics and schismatics, can become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels”
Click to expand...
How is this statement any different than the Church’s teaching that outside the Church there is no salvation? This statement does not include or exclude every waking way a person could be united to the Church, whether normatively or extraordinarily in a way known to God, even if they outwardly practice Judaism or something else with invincible ignorance. Thus, even if it were stated “infallibly” there’s no error in it compared to CCC#846-848.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top