Are these liturgical abuses?

[Roman_Army]

Are these Liturgical abuses:

The pastor is not mentioning the deceased person’s name of which the mass is offered during the Eucharistic prayer for the indulgence.

Instead of following what is stated in the missile at the Gospel reading, the priest says “Listen to the Gospel according to…”

The reserved host was recently moved from the main sanctuary tabernacle to the left Marian altar tabernacle with not much to distinguish it from the unused sanctuary tabernacle. Visitors can mistakenly face the wrong tabernacle in adoration. The candle that is supposed to distinguish the used tabernacle barely stands out. This causes confusion of which tabernacle the Blessed Sacrament is actually in.

 

[GoLatin]

They look like liturgical abuses to me.

 

[Roman_Army]

My pastor is not very orthodox. There are other abuses too.

 

[Orionthehunter]

Are these Liturgical abuses:

The pastor is not mentioning the deceased person’s name of which the mass is offered during the Eucharistic prayer for the indulgence.

Instead of following what is stated in the missile at the Gospel reading, the priest says “Listen to the Gospel according to…”

The reserved host was recently moved from the main sanctuary tabernacle to the left Marian altar tabernacle with not much to distinguish it from the unused sanctuary tabernacle. Visitors can mistakenly face the wrong tabernacle in adoration. The candle that is supposed to distinguish the used tabernacle barely stands out. This causes confusion of which tabernacle the Blessed Sacrament is actually in.

Maybe the Pastor forgot to write down the name of the person for whom the Mass is being said or the secretary inadvertently left in the name from the previous day’s intention. As my wife has been an office volunteer for our parish secretary, she has come home w/ stories of similar type screw-ups. I don’t remember the details but she came home once where she inadvertently deleted the end of one intention and the beginning of another and when it was read at Mass, the intention was nonsense.

Regarding the second, I don’t know whether there are specific instructions on how the readings are to be introduced. I hear slightly different ways (Today’s reading is . . . .vs. The First Reading is . . . vs. just saying "First Corinthians . . . .). And if there are instructions, there may be flexibility given to the Priest.

Finally, I know that I’ve been to inner-city parishes that had alot of people coming to the church to pray move the Blessed Sacrament to a side altar during the day to facilitate prayer for the faithful in a more intimate setting. Personally, I like “cozying” up to the Tabernacle rather than looking far away as would happen if left in the main tabernacle, especially in older churches with large expansive sanctuaries. Maybe all you need to do is point out to the Pastor that the candle is insufficiently bright to allow worshippers to realize that the Blessed Sacrament has been moved.

Anyway, these maybe something other than abuses.

 

[viktor_aleksndr]

My pastor is not very orthodox. There are other abuses too.

I dont know why some priest just can’t follow what is in the missal and invent their own phrases.

 

[CatholicCid]

While I can’t say if these are abuses, I agree with “Maybe all you need to do is point out to the Pastor that the candle is insufficiently bright to allow worshippers to realize that the Blessed Sacrament has been moved.” from OrionTheHunter.

Figuring he knows which Tabernacle Our Lord is kept in and when, he might not realize how hard it truly is to distinguish between them, seeing if they keep the correct Candle lit. I’d say go and ask if there might be a way to make it more noticable as to which tabernacle Our Lord is currently residing in, such as say leaving the bare tabernacle open to show it’s emptyness or some other solution

 

[JimG]

The Mass intention, or name of the person for whomthe Mass is being offered does not need to be mentioned during the Mass.

 

[Roman_Army]

JimG:

The Mass intention, or name of the person for whomthe Mass is being offered does not need to be mentioned during the Mass.

Oh, I didn’t know that. Does anyone have an authoritative backing for this?

 

[Roman_Army]

CatholicCid:

While I can’t say if these are abuses, I agree with “Maybe all you need to do is point out to the Pastor that the candle is insufficiently bright to allow worshippers to realize that the Blessed Sacrament has been moved.” from OrionTheHunter.

Figuring he knows which Tabernacle Our Lord is kept in and when, he might not realize how hard it truly is to distinguish between them, seeing if they keep the correct Candle lit. I’d say go and ask if there might be a way to make it more noticable as to which tabernacle Our Lord is currently residing in, such as say leaving the bare tabernacle open to show it’s emptyness or some other solution

**That’s what I was thinking of. Of either telling him to put the candle in a more visible position, lighting other candles, and/or leaving the old Tabernacle open or covering it up with one of the flower pots. I’ll see what I’ll do, but I’m afraid that he’s percieving me as too bossy. I have already tried correcting him on a bunch of other worst liturgical abuses and am considering sending a complaint to the Bishop. He’s obstinate about them, even after I’ve cited the GIRM. I recently sent him another letter citing some parts of “Redemptoris Sacramentum,” Vatican II’s “Sacrosanctum Concilium”, and John Paul II’s “Ecclesia de Eucharistia.” Hopefully he’ll be persuaded to change. He is also planning a liturgical dance at the offertory. **

 

[Dr.Bombay]

**That’s what I was thinking of. Of either telling him to put the candle in a more visible position, lighting other candles, and/or leaving the old Tabernacle open or covering it up with one of the flower pots. I’ll see what I’ll do, but I’m afraid that he’s percieving me as too bossy. I have already tried correcting him on a bunch of other worst liturgical abuses and am considering sending a complaint to the Bishop. He’s obstinate about them, even after I’ve cited the GIRM. I recently sent him another letter citing some parts of “Redemptoris Sacramentum,” Vatican II’s “Sacrosanctum Concilium”, and John Paul II’s “Ecclesia de Eucharistia.” Hopefully he’ll be persuaded to change. He is also planning a liturgical dance at the offertory. **

Keep the faith, friend!

At least you had the courage to confront him rather than bypassing him altogether and going straight to the bishop. He should appreciate the fact that you are trying to work things out with him without going over his head. Sometimes, though, when confronted with obstinancy, we have no choice.

Keep praying for him.

 

[JimG]

Oh, I didn’t know that. Does anyone have an authoritative backing for this?

Sorry, I don’t have anything I can point to as far as documentation goes. I think Fr. Stravinskas addressed the question once in the old Catholic Answer magazine. Many parishes, including mine, print the Mass intentions in the bulletin but don’t announce them at Mass. I’ve been in a few parishes where, at least at daily Mass, the intention is announced. And some parishes neither publish nor announce.

In our parish, excess Mass intentions are sent to the missions, so for those which are sent off, one would have no way of knowing when or where that particular Mass would be said.

Personally, I think it’s better not to announce the intentions at Mass. It tends to give the Mass a rather proprietary feel–as though this Mass belongs only to this one person. Whereas in fact, each Mass is of infinite value, and we can each offer our own participation for our own personal intentions.

 

[Roman_Army]

JimG:

Sorry, I don’t have anything I can point to as far as documentation goes. I think Fr. Stravinskas addressed the question once in the old Catholic Answer magazine. Many parishes, including mine, print the Mass intentions in the bulletin but don’t announce them at Mass. I’ve been in a few parishes where, at least at daily Mass, the intention is announced. And some parishes neither publish nor announce.

In our parish, excess Mass intentions are sent to the missions, so for those which are sent off, one would have no way of knowing when or where that particular Mass would be said.

Personally, I think it’s better not to announce the intentions at Mass. It tends to give the Mass a rather proprietary feel–as though this Mass belongs only to this one person. Whereas in fact, each Mass is of infinite value, and we can each offer our own participation for our own personal intentions.

The problem with that is that it is part of tradition that we pray for the dead in mass. If we stop announcing the person’s name at mass, then that would be suppressing the infallible doctrine of indulgences and purgatory. It is good that the community pray for the departed member to show their love and care to their brother or sister in Christ. How can a person benefit from an indulgence when their name is not mentioned in mass? What would be the point of donating for it? It is important that we remember our dear departed brothers and sisters and pray for mercy towards them. To me, it is uncharitable not to mention the dead at mass and it denies the fact that we are brothers and sisters even after death.

 

[Roman_Army]

Dr. Bombay:

Keep the faith, friend!

At least you had the courage to confront him rather than bypassing him altogether and going straight to the bishop. He should appreciate the fact that you are trying to work things out with him without going over his head. Sometimes, though, when confronted with obstinancy, we have no choice.

Keep praying for him.

**Yes, and because of that I run the risk of him disliking me and discriminating me. I hope he is appreciative and not that type of person. Because when and if the Bishop acts, he’ll know it was me that complained. Plus, it’s not just him that’ll get in trouble, but also the monsignor, the Pastoral Vicar, and possibly the Sister. Plus, the draft that I have includes some surrounding parishes, which I attend occasionally. Hopefully, they’re all nice people. **

 

[kmktexas]

The problem with that is that it is part of tradition that we pray for the dead in mass. If we stop announcing the person’s name at mass, then that would be suppressing the infallible doctrine of indulgences and purgatory.
.

No, we specifically pray for the dead in the Eucharistic prayer. Not mentioning one person by name does not have any effect (not that you could supress doctrine, anyway) on the doctrine or on anyone’s exercise of the practice of praying for the dead.

How can a person benefit from an indulgence when their name is not mentioned in mass? What would be the point of donating for it?

Do you mean the stipend? The stipend is not a necessary part of the Mass intention, let alone the indulgence the departed soul may receive. We are not paying for the indulgence.

You don’t have to know someone’s name to offer your prayers (or the Mass, or your Communion) for their soul. Catholics know that each Mass is generally being offered with a particular intention (or more than one). It is sufficient to offer your prayers with those of the priest and everyone else at Mass for the intention - whatever that may be. Same goes for other prayers. My kids and I offer up prayers to the deceased every time we pass the cemetary and see a burial in progress or see a funeral procession in the street. I am sure that those prayers are used for the soul of the person whose name we will never know, unless that soul no longer needs them (heaven) or cannot benefit from them (hell).

BTW, not all Mass intentions are for the dead. Many are for the living. I am sure that there are many times that someone requests Masses but doesn’t necessarily want his/her name used.

 

[harinkj]

**
Instead of following what is stated in the missile at the Gospel reading, the priest says “Listen to** the Gospel according to…”

I guess we should be glad the priest doesn’t say “Listen Up!”

• kathie :bowdown:

 

[JimG]

The problem with that is that it is part of tradition that we pray for the dead in mass. If we stop announcing the person’s name at mass, then that would be suppressing the infallible doctrine of indulgences and purgatory. It is good that the community pray for the departed member to show their love and care to their brother or sister in Christ. How can a person benefit from an indulgence when their name is not mentioned in mass? What would be the point of donating for it? It is important that we remember our dear departed brothers and sisters and pray for mercy towards them. To me, it is uncharitable not to mention the dead at mass and it denies the fact that we are brothers and sisters even after death.

Well, Kristine has already answered this, so I’ll be short. Each of the Eucharistic Prayers has a place where we remember the dead. So we do remember and pray for the dead in every Mass.

The priest may be offering his own intention on behalf of someone who offered a Mass stipend, but that intention need not be publicly announced. In my own parish it is never announced. Mass intentions are published in the bulletin (although some may simply be stated as “special intention” if the person does not want their name used.)

Because it is such a large parish there are not enough scheduled Masses for everyone who wants to have a Mass offered. So with the donor’s permission stipends will be accepted and sent to overseas missions, where a Mass will be said for the person’s intention at a time and place of the missioner’s choosing.

 

[Roman_Army]

Thanks guys. I posted the thread because I’m trying to make sure my drafted complaint to the Bishop is not exaggerated. So, I’ll delete that part from the list about the mentioning of the deceased at mass. However, I’m still not sure about the “Listen to the Gospel…” thing. I guess I’ll have to check the GIRM and/or RS on it. It doesn’t bother me much, it’s just that it’s not in accordance with the missile.