Are these novelties abuses?

[mcliffor]

My home parish just got itself a new pastoral associate, who’s made a great many changes to the way we celebrate Mass. How many of these are abuses? I’ve put the ones I’m most suspiscious of in bold.

• He usually starts Mass off with a sing along or announcement. Today, at the children’s mass, he read from the “Gospel of the Grinch,” a Dr. Seuss quote about how there’s more to Christmas than presents.
• After the Introit, the priest told us to turn to our neighbors and introduce ourselves so we could celebrate as a community, because “God was present in the community.”
• There is a loud roar before and after Mass that makes it impossible to pray.
• During advent, he had a procession where parishoners carried lit advent candles through the aisly before putting them down on the wreath.
  -The altar boys now sit outside the sanctuary, in the pews, except for during the Canon.
• hand holding during the Our Father
• during the homily, the priest leaves the sanctuary with a microphone and invites all the kids to come sit on the steps of the altar. Then he usually does a singalong with lots of clapping during the homily.
• he stops to make announcements, or add something not in the rubrics.
• He insisted on removing all the candles from the sanctuary. We used to have a beautiful High Altar with six candlesticks on either side of the tabernacle. Without deconsecrating the altar, he removed all the cloths as well. Now it’s jsut a tabernacle table. He claims these are mandates or guidelines, and used the same excuse when he said the tabernacle “should not be” in the sanctuary.
  -The priest left out the Creed tonight at Xmas Mass
• The ordinary of the Mass is usually just a singalong without the whole text, mor like a responsorial psalm.
• people are asked to genuflect only once in front of the tabernacle instead of whenever they pass in front of it.
• lectors, cantors and ushers bow instead of genuflect when the reverence the tabernacle during and outside of Mass. Is this standard?

Any ideas for what I should do? I’m close to the pastor supporting these changes and don’t want to jeopardize my relationship with him. I’m sure all those involved know they’re breaking the rules. I’d like to write a letter addressing these changes and the negative effect they seem to be having on the congregation, but the PA is all about numbers and getting people in the pews. That to him is what means the faith is thriving.

But I’m concerned because I’ve noticed that the congregation is becoming more and more irreverant. I know it’s a children’s Mass, and people are very supportive of these kinds of changes, but does he have to remove* all *soleminty to make it easier for the kids? People don’t even wait until they’re outside to start gossiping after Mass and no one genuflects. Today, a kid shouted out during the canon, and the whole congregation started laughing out loud. I think these changes in their attitude says something about the state of their faith.

Also, what do you do in a situation where everyone else is commiting an abuse (ie. handholding, gathering around the altar) and they might be offended if you didn’t join in. Are we supposed to just go with the flow and hold their hands?

 

[Victorious]

Also, what do you do in a situation where everyone else is commiting an abuse (ie. handholding, gathering around the altar) and they might be offended if you didn’t join in. Are we supposed to just go with the flow and hold their hands?

I think you know, without having to ask, whether our priorities ought to lie with human respect or with doing the right thing.

Just a note on hand-holding: I hate it – though I will hold a friend’s hand, because there is some intimacy there that lays a foundation for this type of touching. Hand-holding is not part of the Mass; but from the point of view of the rules, I think the real problem with hand-holding is when people are forced to do it against their wishes. This often happens in parishes run by liberal priests who pride themselves on being champions of “tolerance.”

 

[Eireann]

My home parish just got itself a new pastoral associate, who’s made a great many changes to the way we celebrate Mass. How many of these are abuses? I’ve put the ones I’m most suspiscious of in bold.

• He usually starts Mass off with a sing along or announcement. Today, at the children’s mass, he read from the “Gospel of the Grinch,” a Dr. Seuss quote about how there’s more to Christmas than presents.
• After the Introit, the priest told us to turn to our neighbors and introduce ourselves so we could celebrate as a community, because “God was present in the community.”
• There is a loud roar before and after Mass that makes it impossible to pray.
• During advent, he had a procession where parishioners carried lit advent candles through the aisly before putting them down on the wreath.
  -The altar boys now sit outside the sanctuary, in the pews, except for during the Canon.
• hand holding during the Our Father
• during the homily, the priest leaves the sanctuary with a microphone and invites all the kids to come sit on the steps of the altar. Then he usually does a singalong with lots of clapping during the homily.
• he stops to make announcements, or add something not in the rubrics.
• He insisted on removing all the candles from the sanctuary. We used to have a beautiful High Altar with six candlesticks on either side of the tabernacle. Without deconsecrating the altar, he removed all the cloths as well. Now it’s jsut a tabernacle table. He claims these are mandates or guidelines, and used the same excuse when he said the tabernacle “should not be” in the sanctuary.
  -The priest left out the Creed tonight at Xmas Mass
• The ordinary of the Mass is usually just a singalong without the whole text, mor like a responsorial psalm.
• people are asked to genuflect only once in front of the tabernacle instead of whenever they pass in front of it.
• lectors, cantors and ushers bow instead of genuflect when the reverence the tabernacle during and outside of Mass. Is this standard?

Any ideas for what I should do? I’m close to the pastor supporting these changes and don’t want to jeopardize my relationship with him. I’m sure all those involved know they’re breaking the rules. I’d like to write a letter addressing these changes and the negative effect they seem to be having on the congregation, but the PA is all about numbers and getting people in the pews. That to him is what means the faith is thriving.

But I’m concerned because I’ve noticed that the congregation is becoming more and more irreverant. I know it’s a children’s Mass, and people are very supportive of these kinds of changes, but does he have to remove* all *soleminty to make it easier for the kids? People don’t even wait until they’re outside to start gossiping after Mass and no one genuflects. Today, a kid shouted out during the canon, and the whole congregation started laughing out loud. I think these changes in their attitude says something about the state of their faith.

Also, what do you do in a situation where everyone else is commiting an abuse (ie. handholding, gathering around the altar) and they might be offended if you didn’t join in. Are we supposed to just go with the flow and hold their hands?

Yes… was it like that in the upper room, with Jesus knowing that He was going to His death ?

Calvary was a solemn occasion, Mass is no less, a solemn occasion.

 

[palmas85]

My home parish just got itself a new pastoral associate, who’s made a great many changes to the way we celebrate Mass. How many of these are abuses? I’ve put the ones I’m most suspiscious of in bold.

• He usually starts Mass off with a sing along or announcement. Today, at the children’s mass, he read from the “Gospel of the Grinch,” a Dr. Seuss quote about how there’s more to Christmas than presents.
• After the Introit, the priest told us to turn to our neighbors and introduce ourselves so we could celebrate as a community, because “God was present in the community.”
• There is a loud roar before and after Mass that makes it impossible to pray.
• During advent, he had a procession where parishoners carried lit advent candles through the aisly before putting them down on the wreath.
  -The altar boys now sit outside the sanctuary, in the pews, except for during the Canon.
• hand holding during the Our Father
• during the homily, the priest leaves the sanctuary with a microphone and invites all the kids to come sit on the steps of the altar. Then he usually does a singalong with lots of clapping during the homily.
• he stops to make announcements, or add something not in the rubrics.
• He insisted on removing all the candles from the sanctuary. We used to have a beautiful High Altar with six candlesticks on either side of the tabernacle. Without deconsecrating the altar, he removed all the cloths as well. Now it’s jsut a tabernacle table. He claims these are mandates or guidelines, and used the same excuse when he said the tabernacle “should not be” in the sanctuary.
  -The priest left out the Creed tonight at Xmas Mass
• The ordinary of the Mass is usually just a singalong without the whole text, mor like a responsorial psalm.
• people are asked to genuflect only once in front of the tabernacle instead of whenever they pass in front of it.
• lectors, cantors and ushers bow instead of genuflect when the reverence the tabernacle during and outside of Mass. Is this standard?

Any ideas for what I should do? I’m close to the pastor supporting these changes and don’t want to jeopardize my relationship with him. I’m sure all those involved know they’re breaking the rules. I’d like to write a letter addressing these changes and the negative effect they seem to be having on the congregation, but the PA is all about numbers and getting people in the pews. That to him is what means the faith is thriving.

But I’m concerned because I’ve noticed that the congregation is becoming more and more irreverant. I know it’s a children’s Mass, and people are very supportive of these kinds of changes, but does he have to remove* all *soleminty to make it easier for the kids? People don’t even wait until they’re outside to start gossiping after Mass and no one genuflects. Today, a kid shouted out during the canon, and the whole congregation started laughing out loud. I think these changes in their attitude says something about the state of their faith.

Also, what do you do in a situation where everyone else is commiting an abuse (ie. handholding, gathering around the altar) and they might be offended if you didn’t join in. Are we supposed to just go with the flow and hold their hands?

Short answer, yes they are abuses. As to what you can do, complain to the Priest or Pastor or Bishop, but it more than likely won’t do any good.

Who cares if someone gets offended if you don’t join in?? Really, who cares??

Are you that weak and insecure that you would rather disavow the faith so people might not get offended?? Do you think that St Paul and all the other martyrs of the faith got scared of offending someone or even overly concerned that it might happen? This incredibly self destructive concern we have over not hurting feelings or offending anyone in any way shape or form and being accepted at any and all costs really needs to go. There comes a point when you have to stand up and say enough is enough.

Please tell me that on the eve of great celebration of Christmas that you care more for Christ and His church and your faith than what the others might think and feel about your actions.

 

[mcliffor]

Please tell me that on the eve of great celebration of Christmas that you care more for Christ and His church and your faith than what the others might think and feel about your actions.

When my mother tried to grab my hand during the Lord’s Prayer, I pulled it away. She disaproved, and I told her it was a litugical abuse.

She responded, “Do you really think God won’t frown upon your refusal to hold someone’s hand just because you want to follow some obscure rule? I think God would rather you not reject your neighbor.”

 

[netmilsmom]

When my mother tried to grab my hand during the Lord’s Prayer, I pulled it away. She disaproved, and I told her it was a litugical abuse.

She responded, “Do you really think God won’t frown upon your refusal to hold someone’s hand just because you want to follow some obscure rule? I think God would rather you not reject your neighbor.”

Check whether your Diocese is encouraging handholding. I haven’t found one yet who is. If your Bishop is not openly encouraging this gesture, tell her that God does not want one to disobey. That is the bigger picture.

According to the Vatican, no one is to add to the liturgy.
Why does she want to disobey the Vatican?

 

[Rykell]

Last edited by mcliffor : Yesterday at 9:12 pm.

If I read this correctly, the first order of business after receiving the Lord in the celebration of His Holy Incarnation, was to arrive home, go on the internet and spread the cheer about the celebrant’s abuses. O HOLY night!

God’s peace, and Merry Christmas!

 

[netmilsmom]

If I read this correctly, the first order of business after receiving the Lord in the celebration of His Holy Incarnation, was to arrive home, go on the internet and spread the cheer about the celebrant’s abuses. O HOLY night!

God’s peace, and Merry Christmas!

Better the OP did it here than in the middle of the parish.
CAF is here to vent.

Maybe if the celebrant would have a mass without abuse or innovation, the OP would have nothing to complain about.

Ever think of that? The best Christmas present some people here could get would be a Holy Mass without innovation.

 

[Katie1723]

I read through the posts and had to shake my head. How sad that people go to Mass looking for “something wrong”.
I go to Mass because of the Eucharist and what/who that represents. So what if Father Gibbons wanders around while he gives his homily. It’s the message I am getting, not how it’s being delivered that’s important. After all, didn’t Jesus wander around when He spoke?
Kathy

 

[tcraig]

I read through the posts and had to shake my head. How sad that people go to Mass looking for “something wrong”.
I go to Mass because of the Eucharist and what/who that represents. So what if Father Gibbons wanders around while he gives his homily. It’s the message I am getting, not how it’s being delivered that’s important. After all, didn’t Jesus wander around when He spoke?
Kathy

Oh, good grief. Have you ever thought that sometimes people would love to go to Mass just once and not have something weird or goofy happen? That maybe it would be so nice and such a relief to be part of a parish where a reverent and dignified Mass occurred, without any deviations from the GIRM?

If the worst that was to happen was that the priest “wandered” a bit during the homily, I hardly think you would have so many people posting on this forum. If that’s the worst that occurs in your parish, count yourself blessed.

 

[netmilsmom]

Oh, good grief. Have you ever thought that sometimes people would love to go to Mass just once and not have something weird or goofy happen? That maybe it would be so nice and such a relief to be part of a parish where a reverent and dignified Mass occurred, without any deviations from the GIRM?

If the worst that was to happen was that the priest “wandered” a bit during the homily, I hardly think you would have so many people posting on this forum. If that’s the worst that occurs in your parish, count yourself blessed.

Amen!
People have put up with innovation after innovation that have become the norm because no one said anything about them or when someone states that they don’t like them people like Katie say things like this…
" How sad that people go to Mass looking for “something wrong”."

Katie dear, at some masses, no one has to “look”. Innovation and abuse smack you right in the face.

Wonderful that you have a mass that you like. Some of us are stuck with masses that have the reverence of a pop concert.

 

[decn2b]

Hand holding during the our father has damaged the Mass severely. It FORCES people to do things that are not part of the Mass. Most people could care less but those of us who would rather place our focus on GOD during this God centered VERTICAL part of the Mass, get looks of Malice from others. The words of this prayer are obvious and let us know where our focus should be, and this is, UPWARDS toward GOD. Hand holding is a Horizontal gesture that totally dilutes and destroys this portion of the Mass. The gesture of Mass that aknowledges the sense of communty immediately follows the vertical Lords prayer. That gesture is called the kiss of peace. Hand holding during the Lords Prayer nearly trumps the sole reason the kiss of peace is placed in the Mass. Hold holding is a modernist invention which perhaps was intentionally introduced to the Mass to shift the focus from God to Man. (see Adam and Eve)

THis posture during Mass has some very serious implications. A few years ago I was visiting a very Modernist parish. As I clasped my hands shut for the our father the person next to me pryed my hands apart and clutched my nand. I pulled away and got a very very nasty look from this individual. Immediately following this person refused to shake my hand for the Kiss of peace.

Now could someone please tell me that the whole hand holding issue is only a minor thing!!

 

[Asperges_Me]

Oh, good grief. Have you ever thought that sometimes people would love to go to Mass just once and not have something weird or goofy happen? That maybe it would be so nice and such a relief to be part of a parish where a reverent and dignified Mass occurred, without any deviations from the GIRM?

I often wonder why Catholics who are looking for or satisfied with an innovative, ad libed, anything goes, make it up as you go along worship service or maybe at best communion service, don’t just check out the churches of the reformation. I’m sure that there are many Protestant churches out there who cater to those tastes. Seriously, I’m curious as to why people stay Catholic if they are not satisfied with following the approved liturgy of the Church. Anybody want to try to tackle that one?

 

[mcliffor]

I read through the posts and had to shake my head. How sad that people go to Mass looking for “something wrong”.
I go to Mass because of the Eucharist and what/who that represents. So what if Father Gibbons wanders around while he gives his homily. It’s the message I am getting, not how it’s being delivered that’s important. After all, didn’t Jesus wander around when He spoke?
Kathy

First off, I went to Mass with my family to worship God. I expected an orthodox liturgy that would communicate the solemnity of the feast, and this is what I got. These changes kept me from worshiping God the way the Church and God wants us to worship him. They turned the Mass into something it wasn’t, a celebration of community, and having to close my eyes and imagine myself worshiping God was all I could do.

Ans secondly, these kinds of abuses are destructive to our faith. I consider myself more commited to the faith than most of the people in my parish, and going to a Mass like this is like a stab wound. God didn’t die on a cross to have his “followers” stand around and worship their own identity. If the Church agreed with you that this wasn’t a big deal whether Fr. Gibbons wandered around an gave a pointless homily about Santa Claus that was more like an episode of “Kid’s say the darndest things,” then they wouldn’t forbid it in any form. These things matter. The way we pray, or are forced to pray, is important.

 

[mcliffor]

I often wonder why Catholics who are looking for or satisfied with an innovative, ad libed, anything goes, make it up as you go along worship service or maybe at best communion service, don’t just check out the churches of the reformation. I’m sure that there are many Protestant churches out there who cater to those tastes. Seriously, I’m curious as to why people stay Catholic if they are not satisfied with following the approved liturgy of the Church. Anybody want to try to tackle that one?

Seriously, it’s like asking a McDonald’s to start serving fired chicken when there’s a KFC across the street. But I think for the people who don’t do that, the problem is that they want to be Catholic for whatever reason, but they have their own notions of what is right, and want to change the Church.

 

[mcliffor]

But could someone tell me if there’s anything on that list that isn’t an abuse? Where can I find official documents condemning them?

 

[JKirkLVNV]

When my mother tried to grab my hand during the Lord’s Prayer, I pulled it away. She disaproved, and I told her it was a litugical abuse.

She responded, “Do you really think God won’t frown upon your refusal to hold someone’s hand just because you want to follow some obscure rule? I think God would rather you not reject your neighbor.”

I’m not sure I would decline to hold my mother’s hand, out of reverence for her (and I believe the Holy See has commented that this is a “natural” hand holding, ie, families, spouses,and not a “contrived” one, for want of a better word, forced on an unwilling faithful), though I do not hold hands at the Pater Noster. I do think I would have asked her latter where we ought to draw the line. How many rules/rubrics should we ignore? WHICH rules and rubrics should we ignore? Should the priests be the ones to determine which and how many? Will they let us know which and how many? How? In the weekly bulletin? I would try to be respectful, but I would ask.

Liturgical worship IMPLIES rules and rubrics.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

“The Gospel of the Grinch” or anything else cannot replace the Gospel Reading (or any other), but if he wants to include it in his homily, then he can read from it. I doubt this is an abuse.

How old IS this priest?

 

[netmilsmom]

“The Gospel of the Grinch” or anything else cannot replace the Gospel Reading (or any other), but if he wants to include it in his homily, then he can read from it. I doubt this is an abuse.

How old IS this priest?

In rereading this, I think it was a children’s mass.

But how old the Priest is, is a very good question.

 

[mcliffor]

It was a children’s mass, and the gospel thing was read by the PA before the introit, probably not an abuse. I just thought it was innapropriate for him to allign Christ with Dr. Seuss. Too much dumbing down, even for children.

I didn’t hold hands with my family because it’s not something we would have done had the priest not asked us to. My mother wasn’t offended that I wouldn’t hold hands with her, but that I was too “proud” to take part in a liturgical abuse. He told us to reach across the aisle and hold hands with our brothers and sisters in Christ, so this wasn’t about encouraging families to be intimate with each other.

But are all of these things regularly permitted in the children’s Mass?