Are these novelties abuses?

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Walking_Home said:
To keep peace—keep your hands to yourself. The one that caused the disturbance–was the one who pryed dec2nb’s hands apart. I would not go into my neighbor’s house and make them hold hands with me—It may even considered some form of assault.
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No, the one that carried on about the handholding was at fault. You’re missing the point BOTH were not in their own homes, they were in God’s house!
 
At the risk of being slammed by anyone…I believe that too many liberties are taken today. It is the protestantization of the church. Overstated? Perhaps but when parishes can’t even seem to follow the basic leadership of the Vatican let alone the rubrics of mass how is this the same Roman Catholic Church? 😦
 
Karianne said:
Because it is uncharitable! IF the shoe fits, wear it!
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Quote=Karianne
No, the one that carried on about the handholding was at fault. You’re missing the point BOTH were not in their own homes, they were in God’s house!​

No–uncharitable would be to continue to let the innovators continue to derail our Mass. It would be uncharitable to all who want to follow the mind of the Church. By the way—you can keep your shoe—it is more to your size.
 
Karianne said:
I used the term because that is what many of the posters are doing, they don’t like the new way of doing things, they are personally offended, even though everything has been approved by the Vatican.
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If Masses were being celebrated only in ways that have been approved by the Vatican, with no abuses, you would not see posters on this forum asking “is this an abuse?” It’s because so many priests have decided that the liturgy is their own personal playtoy that the faithful are offended.

It’s not about liking the “new way” of doing things. It’s about rules and order. There are specific liturgical guidelines, and if a priest doesn’t follow them, that’s a problem. Many use this forum to vent, because writing letters and complaining to their priest/bishop gets them nowhere and venting is all they can do.
 
Karianne said:
I used the term because that is what many of the posters are doing, they don’t like the new way of doing things, they are personally offended, even though everything has been approved by the Vatican.
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Pity that so much has NOT been approved by the Vatican - indeed has been reprobated by the Vatican - and YET STILL HAPPENS. That is the complaint. The vast majority of posters here are complaining about abuses of the texts and rubrics in direct violation of the Vatican. When that all stops - maybe then you will have a point.
That is a Cafeteria Catholic and they are damaging to the Church and to the Faithful. They give scandal because, in public, they criticize their priests. (this is a public forum read by many non-catholics).
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And the priests deserve the criticism when its valid - priests who do not say Mass in accordance withthe rubrics are at fault - not those who call them on it. Indeed I submmit we have a DUTY to call them on it - and to educate others on the abuses. If that’s a scandal - the fault lies with the priests who arrogantly manhandle the Mass.
They damage the Faithful because they fail to present a cheerful and loving presence and they cause tension with their fellow Catholics.
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When the faith is attacked by priests who won’t say the Mass in accordance with the rubrics - the faithful MUST reprove them. Certainly you aren’t suggesting the faithful cheerfully accept such actuions. If there is a lack of loving presence, perhaps the priests who attack the Mass with their self-serving arrogance are the cause and not those who legitimately and forcefully demand their adherance to the rubrics and texts. The tension come from the errant priests - not those who are calling them to faithfulness.
So, that is what cafeteria catholic, someone who stubbornly refuses to go along with the Vatican and wants things their own way regardless of whether or not it is good for the Faithful.
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And that is what those priests are - NOT those who demand they do exactly what they should in accordance withthe Vatican norms.
Those who are so busy looking for something wrong with the Masses that they attend are Cafeteria Catholics and so are those who agree with them.
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No one is busy looking for what’s wrong - it stares us in the face too often. It is the priests aho refuse to offer Mass appropriately who are picking and choosing what to say in the Mass over what is required. The “cafeteria” refers to picking and choosing from what’s offered rather than taking it all. Tell us where a priest is authorized to change the Eucharistic Prayers? I’ve seen it way too many times. Then the common changes to other required prayers at Mass. There are many options - OK. But the abuses are real, many, scandalous and need to be opposed with vigor because being “nice” these last 40 years has proven to be a failure in significantly stopping these abuse.
 
Actually, a priest once told me that I was being “divisive” because I wouldn’t hold hands during the Pater Noster of a Novus Ordo Mass.

“Divisive” is a favorite watchword of many today in the Church. If you don’t do things “our way”, you’re divisive. Schismatic. Rebellious. Troubled. Uncharitable.

In other words, you will do what we say, and happily, with a smile.

What’s next? Liturgical Mao suits?

Despite the alleged aggiornamento of Vatican II, when I push comes to shove many in charge of liturgy today act like the worst examples of stereotypical Medieval Catholicism: “You will kneel when we say and stand when we say and hold hands when we say and sing what and when we say because we say it’s a NORM and because it’s a matter of OBEDIENCE and if you do not obey you are showing disrespect to AUTHORITY.”
 
Walking_Home said:

Quote=Karianne
No, the one that carried on about the handholding was at fault. You’re missing the point BOTH were not in their own homes, they were in God’s house!​

No–uncharitable would be to continue to let the innovators continue to derail our Mass. It would be uncharitable to all who want to follow the mind of the Church. By the way—you can keep your shoe—it is more to your size.
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Wrong, the poster should have just held hands and then vented AFTER Mass.
On the other hand, I thought that the OP was a guy, if she is a girl, then I agree that it may have frightened her and she handled it okay.
 
Karianne said:
Wrong, the poster should have just held hands and then vented AFTER Mass.
On the other hand, I thought that the OP was a guy, if she is a girl, then I agree that it may have frightened her and she handled it okay.
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Can you show me anywhere in the rubics that handholding is required?

In fact, can you show me anywhere that handholding is even encouraged?
 
AlexV said:
What’s next? Liturgical Mao suits?
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Say - there’s an idea!!😃

What’s truly odd is that one of the main complaints against the pre-VII Church was the clericalism and authoritarianism of that time. Hmmmm plus ca change, plus c’est la meme chose.

Now it’s the innovators who find that the troops are revolting and demanding orthodoxy and obedience on the part of the clergy, episcopacy and vowed religious - and they don’t like to have to toe the line. Why? Because they are so much better than we of the great unwashed!!
 
netmil(name removed by moderator) said:
Can you show me anywhere in the rubics that handholding is required?

In fact, can you show me anywhere that handholding is even encouraged?
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No, however, my common sense tells me that to make trouble in church, or to respond to someone else who I figure is making trouble is not good, esp during Mass, for Heaven’s sake!
It’s just inappropriate.
 
It’s inappropriate to impose your will on your neighbor and expect them to do what you want, and then, if they dare balk in the slightest, to accuse them of behaving wrongly and/or uncharitably.
 
Karianne said:
No, however, my common sense tells me that to make trouble in church, or to respond to someone else who I figure is making trouble is not good, esp during Mass, for Heaven’s sake!
It’s just inappropriate.
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You are absolutely correct.
Those who feel a need to hold hands should learn that holding their own is gracious and Christlike.

Since my time as an Office Manager for the Head Psychiatrist in a local hospital, I know how much angst one can cause a person who has been abused or paranoid by invading on that person’s personal space.

I’m glad there is some common sense to all of this.
 
Karianne said:
No, however, my common sense tells me that to make trouble in church, or to respond to someone else who I figure is making trouble is not good, esp during Mass, for Heaven’s sake!
It’s just inappropriate.
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Perhaps the individual who has taken iot upon themself to demand certain non-required actions during Mass is at fault for having unjustly created the situation? Gee, that’s an odd thought isn’t it? tell me, do you often blame the victim?
 
johnnykins said:
Perhaps the individual who has taken iot upon themself to demand certain non-required actions during Mass is at fault for having unjustly created the situation? Gee, that’s an odd thought isn’t it? tell me, do you often blame the victim?
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Listen, if the poster is male he should have just held hands, Holding hands is not the issue here, the issue is that the poster was unkind to the person who was trying to make him feel welcome and then he caused the OTHER person to sin by making him angry in God’s house during God’s Mass.

If the poster is female I think that however she handled it was okay.
 
Excuse me.

Moral Theology 101.

Nobody can “cause” another person to sin.

And this issue has nothing to do with gender.
 
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