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vguardado
Guest
I am a new member, I was wondering if Lutherans are considered protestants. I have lutheran friend who claims not to be a protestant but only a “Reformer” Are they protestants or just “Reformers?”
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oneGODoneCHURCH
Guest
Reformer or Protestant there is no difference. Yes Lutherans are Protestants. They are among if not the First Protestants. That is why it is often called the Protestant Reformation.
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JacktheCatholic
Guest
Protestant seems to mean Protesting the Catholic Church. But in todays world the definition of Protestant seems to be different to different people.
Martin Luther was a Catholic monk who enjoyed the Catholic beliefs until about 1516 when he started to have a change of heart based on abuses by fellow clergy regarding indulgences and that the Pope at the time was spending money from the church so fast that he was allowing the abuses to fill the treasury back up from his extravagent spending.
But instead of reforming what was being abuse, as the name Reformation implies, Martin Luther excommunicated himself and broke his vows to the church and God. He then led a rather flip flopping existance where he was known to change his mind on important topics. Topics like removing books from the bible or stating those books are really not inspired by God.
In the end it was a completely new church that Luther made and that is why it is called Lutheran. Martin Luther tried to keep all the things he liked about Catholicism and rejected anything he did not like. He rejected James and Revealtion at one time and called James an Epistle of Straw. Regardless. Martin Luther is the Father of Lutheranism and is commonly classified as Protestant.
Martin Luther was a Catholic monk who enjoyed the Catholic beliefs until about 1516 when he started to have a change of heart based on abuses by fellow clergy regarding indulgences and that the Pope at the time was spending money from the church so fast that he was allowing the abuses to fill the treasury back up from his extravagent spending.
But instead of reforming what was being abuse, as the name Reformation implies, Martin Luther excommunicated himself and broke his vows to the church and God. He then led a rather flip flopping existance where he was known to change his mind on important topics. Topics like removing books from the bible or stating those books are really not inspired by God.
In the end it was a completely new church that Luther made and that is why it is called Lutheran. Martin Luther tried to keep all the things he liked about Catholicism and rejected anything he did not like. He rejected James and Revealtion at one time and called James an Epistle of Straw. Regardless. Martin Luther is the Father of Lutheranism and is commonly classified as Protestant.
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vguardado
Guest
Wow! Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut on this! Further answers are welcome as well… 
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CJ_Nick
Guest
Hi vguardado,
They ( Lutherans ) are one of many many Protestant Christain off shoots, they are surely our beloved Brothers and Sisters in Christ, but are indeed Protestant.
Peace,
CJ
From a Lutheran persdpective. Knowledgable Lutheran do not consider themselves protestant, but instead reformationists. The difference at least for me is a protestant is quite comfortable in schism from Rome, for example. A reformationist takes the view that the reformation remains incomplete without full reconciliation.
In the Book of Concord, the Lutheran confession, the second section is the Augsburg Confession (it is significant that the three creeds make up the firt section). The closing of the Augsburg Confession says, in part:
The statement is clear that the writers had no desire or intention of schism, at least at the time. And the prayer and desire of Lutherans (most of us) is reconcilaition with the Bishop of Rome, primarily, but also with the Orthodox and all Christians.
Others here may disagree, and that’s ok. But I try not to tell others what they are or what they believe. I am a reformationist, a Catholic of the Augsburg Confession or evangelical Catholic, not a protestant, regardless of what others say.
Jon
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JacktheCatholic
Guest
Let us not forget the word that crept into scripture to conform to Martin Luther’s desired world. You know the word… “Alone”.
Martin Luther tried to one up God. No one can one up God. So we have a false teaching based on that one little word that Martin Luther decided to add. Forget about the hundreds of years of Chrisitanity that happened before Martin Luther. Forget about the millions of educated men that came before Martin Luther and were able to leave scripture as it was delivered. Forget about the fact that before Martin Luther changed scripture that it was held as final and uncontested since around the 4th century. The fact is that Martin Luther said he can improve on what God gave us and added the word “Alone”.
So we have an Ungodly doctrine thanks to Martin Luther for which we call “Faith Alone”.
Conclusion: They failed: “we have taken most diligent care that no new and ungodly doctrine should creep into our churches”. Why? Because they rejected the teachings from the Catholic Church which was entrusted to be the Pillar and Foundation of Truth.
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CJ_Nick
Guest
Hi Jon,
I am quickly becoming a fan of yours ( this offering and the " final answer " one from another thread
)I appreciate your contribution here
( Thanks for sharing it )Peace and Happy Easter my Protestant ( Reformed ) Brother
CJ
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oneGODoneCHURCH
Guest
Jon, this is a wonderful. I wold like to start by saying that my mother step sister and brother in law are Lutheran ( Missouri Synod ) I have been to service and many gatherings at there Church and when I was in the hospital about 9 years ago there minister came to visit me and pray with me. I have High regard for him and was thinking at my nieces baptism a couple months ago that he would make an excellent priest.
Now not that I am an expert on the Lutheran confessions but is not the one you quoted from also state that the Pope is the anti Christ? I really believe that Luther started with the most pure of intentions and he may not have been a protestant to begin with, but there were those in his following that had other intention and Protestantism is what came out of it.
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DebChris
Guest
Even the pope uses the term non-Catholic rather than Protestant in referring to our separated brothers and sisters. As the documents of Vatican II state regarding the call to ecumenism, “Is Christ divided?”
A friend of mine talked about an incident that took place during one of her many trips. I think it was in Italy and the tour was being led by a Franciscan priest. When one of the group members apologized for being “protestant,” the priest asked, “What are you protesting?”
We should never overlook the history of the Church and some of the abuses that entered in, leading some to see the need for reform. The Council of Trent is viewed by many as a reaction to the reformers, rather than a response to questions that were raised. We are more familiar with the wars and burning of “heretics” from that time period.
It is interesting that the term Catholic, with a capital C, was first used by the Reformers. If we look at the Nicene Creed “catholic” remains in small letters. It is prayed on Sundays in all the mainline denomination churches I have visited. The one exception is the Presbyterian church which capitalizes “Catholic” in the Nicene Creed.
Returning to my point. Christ prayed that “all would be one.” There is active work being done to reconcile differences. Many of the misconceptions I held regarding Lutheranism were changed when I read Dietrich Bonhoeffer’s Cost of Discipleship. The reasons for “protest” no longer exist.
A friend of mine talked about an incident that took place during one of her many trips. I think it was in Italy and the tour was being led by a Franciscan priest. When one of the group members apologized for being “protestant,” the priest asked, “What are you protesting?”
We should never overlook the history of the Church and some of the abuses that entered in, leading some to see the need for reform. The Council of Trent is viewed by many as a reaction to the reformers, rather than a response to questions that were raised. We are more familiar with the wars and burning of “heretics” from that time period.
It is interesting that the term Catholic, with a capital C, was first used by the Reformers. If we look at the Nicene Creed “catholic” remains in small letters. It is prayed on Sundays in all the mainline denomination churches I have visited. The one exception is the Presbyterian church which capitalizes “Catholic” in the Nicene Creed.
Returning to my point. Christ prayed that “all would be one.” There is active work being done to reconcile differences. Many of the misconceptions I held regarding Lutheranism were changed when I read Dietrich Bonhoeffer’s Cost of Discipleship. The reasons for “protest” no longer exist.
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O.S.Luke
Guest
Good post DebChris.
The etymology of Protestant is one that is enlightening; it is part of my signature. It has, like a lot of words, lost its original meaning and been bastardized into the present definition. A similar word that has been bastardized is professional.
If we want to speak ecclesially, theologically, and historically, Calvinists were probably the first “Protestants.” Lutherans and Anglicans probably fit better into the category of “reformers.” My own Methodist tradition was a sect that evolved into a communion, but for all intents and purposes were are mostly Anglican (the differences are more in polity than in doctrine). Some would say that the first Protestants were the Orthodox, although they would probably argue that the Roman church were the ones who left the original faith.
O what a tangled web we weave…
I suspect these and other reasons are why “non-Catholic” is probably more accurate than to use the term “Protestant.” If we look at Christianity as countercultural, then Christians are ALL catholic (united in Christ) AND Protestant (standing for a witness).
Just a thought or two.
O+
The etymology of Protestant is one that is enlightening; it is part of my signature. It has, like a lot of words, lost its original meaning and been bastardized into the present definition. A similar word that has been bastardized is professional.
If we want to speak ecclesially, theologically, and historically, Calvinists were probably the first “Protestants.” Lutherans and Anglicans probably fit better into the category of “reformers.” My own Methodist tradition was a sect that evolved into a communion, but for all intents and purposes were are mostly Anglican (the differences are more in polity than in doctrine). Some would say that the first Protestants were the Orthodox, although they would probably argue that the Roman church were the ones who left the original faith.
O what a tangled web we weave…
I suspect these and other reasons are why “non-Catholic” is probably more accurate than to use the term “Protestant.” If we look at Christianity as countercultural, then Christians are ALL catholic (united in Christ) AND Protestant (standing for a witness).
Just a thought or two.
O+
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MelanieAnne
Guest
Hey Jon ~ make it easy on yourself, just come home! That’s what I did. You can too!
First, thanks for the nice words.
You are correct, and it is a difficult statement to our modern ears, for a number of reasons.
- We have in this era the notion of the AntiChrist as some kind of end-times beast. Not what is meant here.
- The language and polemics of 500 years ago were very harsh - both ways. Sometimes it happens here at CAF and other forums, but it is generally avoided between the leaders of our communions, thank God.
I persoanlly do not like any of the old polemics because I think they serve only to drive wedges between us. I think they do not serve the cause of unity that Christs wants for us, and that sinful men over the ages have wounded. I do not in any way, nor do most Lutherans, think that great Christian leaders such as John XXIII, Paul VI, JP II, or Benedict are “The AntiChrist”. We may disagree with some of their teachings, but we can express our differences in better keeping with the eighth commandment. From Luther’s Small Catechism:
Jon
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oneGODoneCHURCH
Guest
Jon,
Thank you for you most charitable response. I did pray after posting that it was received as inquiry and not accusatory. I agree with you and believe it or not with many of the things that Luther spoke out against. I Think Rome handled the whole thing very badly and that Luther got caught up in the secular fight the Germanic princes and the Emperor( who was more a Papal puppet than ruler) I agree that the the Practice of selling indulgences was wrong and hand to be dealt with. I do not think that Luther meant anti Christ in the way that most see and use it today,but as you described as in opposition to Christ.
That said many on the reform ( protestant ) side when talk of unification of Christ’s Church only see and talk of thing that The Catholic Church would have to do. It is never about what they would have to do and one of them would be the a show of good faith and renouncing statements like that.
God Bless and Happy Easter.
In another thread I was asked what keeps Lutherans from reuniting with Rome. I said generally:
- Complete reconciliation on the Doctrine of Justification (The JDDJ was a great start)
- Consensus on the primacy of the pope (and infallibility)
- Reconciliation on the Real Presence and transubstantiation
- Consensus on purgatory and intercession
Jon
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DebChris
Guest
I am very careful when it comes to saying what others believe. I have read the mischaractezations of the Catholic Church and would not want to fall into the same trap when describing what others believe. I have found the best way to learn about the teachings of another church or religion is to ask its adherents. When I wrote a paper about the Mennonites, for instance, I looked for information on their websites. After I completed my paper I sent them a copy to ensure the accuracy of the information.
My son-in-law is a Presbyterian minister. Most of us have heard the emphasis that Calvin placed on predestination. What he was actually pointing to was the scripture passage that says “we are predestined to be son and daughters of God.” It is not meant to have the negative connotation that has evolved over time.
As Pope Benedict XVI has said, dialogue is communication across differences. It is recognizing first what we share in common and then addressing differences that we will achieve the reconciliation to which we are called.
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O.S.Luke
Guest
Bravo again, DebChrist. :aok:
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CJ_Nick
Guest
Hello all
A few comments, if I may.
I am humbled to see this thread develop in such a kind and loving way
Props to you ALL for that and thanks for the GREAT example ( IMHO )
Secondly, although I greatly appreciate what has been offered by the " non Catholics " in this thread. I do not see a difference between the label of Reformist and Protestant.
Perhaps that is my own Catholic bias/ignorance speaking loud and clear.
At any rate, I do appreciate the content and manner many have chosen to share.
If you are my " Protestant " brethran or my " Reformer " brethren, I stand firmly with you in our Lord, Christ
Peace and Happy Easter
CJ
A few comments, if I may.
I am humbled to see this thread develop in such a kind and loving way
Props to you ALL for that and thanks for the GREAT example ( IMHO )
Secondly, although I greatly appreciate what has been offered by the " non Catholics " in this thread. I do not see a difference between the label of Reformist and Protestant.
Perhaps that is my own Catholic bias/ignorance speaking loud and clear.
At any rate, I do appreciate the content and manner many have chosen to share.
If you are my " Protestant " brethran or my " Reformer " brethren, I stand firmly with you in our Lord, Christ
Peace and Happy Easter
CJ
CJ,Hello all
A few comments, if I may.
I am humbled to see this thread develop in such a kind and loving way
Props to you ALL for that and thanks for the GREAT example ( IMHO )
Secondly, although I greatly appreciate what has been offered by the " non Catholics " in this thread. I do not see a difference between the label of Reformist and Protestant.
Perhaps that is my own Catholic bias/ignorance speaking loud and clear.
At any rate, I do appreciate the content and manner many have chosen to share.
If you are my " Protestant " brethran or my " Reformer " brethren, I stand firmly with you in our Lord, Christ
Peace and Happy Easter
CJ
Speaking for me, a reformationist constantly is seeling reunion. IOW, the reformation is not successful without it.
I see protestants has comfortable in schism, and reunion is not particularly important.
I stand firmly in Christ with you, my Catholic sibling, as well.
Jon
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