Are they considered Protestant?

  • Thread starter Thread starter vguardado
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
JonNC said:
In another thread I was asked what keeps Lutherans from reuniting with Rome. I said generally:
  1. Complete reconciliation on the Doctrine of Justification (The JDDJ was a great start)
  2. Consensus on the primacy of the pope (and infallibility)
  3. Reconciliation on the Real Presence and transubstantiation
  4. Consensus on purgatory and intercession
Reconciliation and consensus require us to look for ways to express what we firmly believe in ways that both can agree on. With the guidance of the Holy SPirit, I believe that can be done. Whether it is the condemnations against Rome by Lutherans, or the anathemas against Lutheran teachings by Rome, yes these words must be ended.

Jon
Click to expand...
could you explain JDDJ? I am sorry but am terrible with what things stand for.

the other 3 things I have never been able to get a satisfactory explanation on what the real difference is between consubstantiation and transubstantiation is other in the former at some point the Host goes back to being just bread and in the later it remains the Body of Christ so I really do not see that in any way of being a stumblingly block.

As to the Primacy of the Pope, the buck has to stop somewhere no matter what title you want on the office being held, I see that most people out side look at the Pope as some sort of absolute monarch and I don’t believe that is the Church’s stance.

Purgatory well this one I can see being a stubbing block but not to the point were it can not be over come as I had a priest tell me one time we do not know what the condiction of purgatory is only that all stain of sin is removed before entry into heaven this make take a very long time or could happen instantly. (hard to tell since after death we would be out side of time). As for intercessory pray if God is the God of the living why could those that are living in heaven not pray for us as well as those living on earth?

Just my thoughts on your points.
 
=oneGODoneCHURCH;5067123]could you explain JDDJ? I am sorry but am terrible with what things stand for.
Click to expand...
Hi Scott,
JDDJ is the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html
the other 3 things I have never been able to get a satisfactory explanation on what the real difference is between consubstantiation and transubstantiation is other in the former at some point the Host goes back to being just bread and in the later it remains the Body of Christ so I really do not see that in any way of being a stumblingly block.
Click to expand...
Consubstantiation is not a Lutheran belief. Lutherans believe that the in the Eucharist the true body and blood of Christ and is given and recieved with that which is seen, the bread and wine. Luther used the term sacramental union. It is a mystery how this happens.
As to the Primacy of the Pope, the buck has to stop somewhere no matter what title you want on the office being held, I see that most people out side look at the Pope as some sort of absolute monarch and I don’t believe that is the Church’s stance.
Click to expand...
I think in many ways our stance is similar to that of the Orthodox. The Bishop of Rome is the western patriarch, perhaps even first among equals. Under current understanding (which through dialogue can change) we do not accept the primacy and infallible traits ascribed to the papacy.
Purgatory well this one I can see being a stubbing block but not to the point were it can not be over come as I had a priest tell me one time we do not know what the condiction of purgatory is only that all stain of sin is removed before entry into heaven this make take a very long time or could happen instantly. (hard to tell since after death we would be out side of time).
Click to expand...
I actually agree with your assessment here. I think the stumbling block is human merit and indulgences.
As for intercessory pray if God is the God of the living why could those that are living in heaven not pray for us as well as those living on earth?
Click to expand...
Lutherans agree that the Church Triumphant prays for the Church Militant, in a general sense. The question is can they here the requests for intercession that we might bring, and does God approve this. My personal feeling is I can’t condemn a practice that dates back long befoer the schism to the early church, and has brought comfort to billions both east and west.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
Hi Scott,
JDDJ is the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

Consubstantiation is not a Lutheran belief. Lutherans believe that the in the Eucharist the true body and blood of Christ and is given and recieved with that which is seen, the bread and wine. Luther used the term sacramental union. It is a mystery how this happens.

I think in many ways our stance is similar to that of the Orthodox. The Bishop of Rome is the western patriarch, perhaps even first among equals. Under current understanding (which through dialogue can change) we do not accept the primacy and infallible traits ascribed to the papacy.

I actually agree with your assessment here. I think the stumbling block is human merit and indulgences.

Lutherans agree that the Church Triumphant prays for the Church Militant, in a general sense. The question is can they here the requests for intercession that we might bring, and does God approve this. My personal feeling is I can’t condemn a practice that dates back long befoer the schism to the early church, and has brought comfort to billions both east and west.

Jon
Click to expand...
Jon I have the feeling that if the 2 of use were allowed to sit down and represent our perspective sides that reunion would happen in short order.
 
I get the impression that some non-Catholic Christians object to the term “Protestant”, as it implies they are currently grinding an axe with the Catholic Church. Although many have biases against the Church, most do not, and accept us as Christian brethren.
 
JonNC said:
From a Lutheran persdpective. Knowledgable Lutheran do not consider themselves protestant, but instead reformationists. The difference at least for me is a protestant is quite comfortable in schism from Rome, for example. A reformationist takes the view that the reformation remains incomplete without full reconciliation.

In the Book of Concord, the Lutheran confession, the second section is the Augsburg Confession (it is significant that the three creeds make up the firt section). The closing of the Augsburg Confession says, in part:

The statement is clear that the writers had no desire or intention of schism, at least at the time. And the prayer and desire of Lutherans (most of us) is reconcilaition with the Bishop of Rome, primarily, but also with the Orthodox and all Christians.

Others here may disagree, and that’s ok. But I try not to tell others what they are or what they believe. I am a reformationist, a Catholic of the Augsburg Confession or evangelical Catholic, not a protestant, regardless of what others say.

Jon
Click to expand...
What is it that keeps you from reunion with the Catholic Church?
 
Yes, they were the first protestants. They just don’t like that name.
 
DominicVobiscum said:
I get the impression that some non-Catholic Christians object to the term “Protestant”, as it implies they are currently grinding an axe with the Catholic Church. Although many have biases against the Church, most do not, and accept us as Christian brethren.
Click to expand...
I think that is a fair assessment.
Jon
 
CHESTERTONRULES said:
I meant you personally.
Click to expand...
I don’t know that I am ready to accept your current teachings on Purgatory and the requirement to accept, saintly intercession, even if one doesn’t use it. And while I have great respect for the current and recent past popes, I’m not on board with the primacy of the papacy.
There would also be personal and family issues to overcome. I am aculturated into Lutheranism - born and raised (by a Lutheran pastor) and in my fifties, etc.

This is why I am so interested in corporate unity.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
I don’t know that I am ready to accept your current teachings on Purgatory and the requirement to accept, saintly intercession, even if one doesn’t use it. And while I have great respect for the current and recent past popes, I’m not on board with the primacy of the papacy.
There would also be personal and family issues to overcome. I am aculturated into Lutheranism - born and raised (by a Lutheran pastor) and in my fifties, etc.

This is why I am so interested in corporate unity.

Jon
Click to expand...
Understandable. Thank you.

I was just curious.
 
JonNC said:
I don’t know that I am ready to accept your current teachings on Purgatory and the requirement to accept, saintly intercession, even if one doesn’t use it. And while I have great respect for the current and recent past popes, I’m not on board with the primacy of the papacy.
There would also be personal and family issues to overcome. I am aculturated into Lutheranism - born and raised (by a Lutheran pastor) and in my fifties, etc.

This is why I am so interested in corporate unity.

Jon
Click to expand...
Jon

I was just wonder if you have read any of Scott Hahn’s books? I have read a little of his bio and he is a convert to the Catholic Church former Presbyterian minister. He could problem help answer question and concerns of your better than most here. I do truly understand your last statement about being acultrated as Lutheran and the family issues that could and most likely would arise if ever you where to ( for lake of a better word) convert.

May we all pray for union / conversion of all.
I am curious if feel free to say it is non of my business, but to which branch of the Lutheran Faith do you be long?
 
oneGODoneCHURCH said:
Jon

I was just wonder if you have read any of Scott Hahn’s books? I have read a little of his bio and he is a convert to the Catholic Church former Presbyterian minister. He could problem help answer question and concerns of your better than most here. I do truly understand your last statement about being acultrated as Lutheran and the family issues that could and most likely would arise if ever you where to ( for lake of a better word) convert.

May we all pray for union / conversion of all.
I am curious if feel free to say it is non of my business, but to which branch of the Lutheran Faith do you be long?
Click to expand...
First, Scott. I want to thank you for your charity and kindness, and understanding.
I was raised LCA, which was part of the merger that formed the ELCA. I have been Missouri Synod for about 9 years now.
Jon

EDIT: The Sacred Heart picture in you signature is beautiful.
 
JonNC said:
First, Scott. I want to thank you for your charity and kindness, and understanding.
I was raised LCA, which was part of the merger that formed the ELCA. I have been Missouri Synod for about 9 years now.
Jon

EDIT: The Sacred Heart picture in you signature is beautiful.
Click to expand...
I thank you. I have prayed many years to for God to muzzle my mouth, so as not to offend. And some times I get out of the way and he does. :D.
I don’t know why but I have always felt a grieve sadness over the split between the church and Luther. Maybe it because I have never seen that that is what he wanted. I have always seen it much the same as the schism with the Orthodox as to much pride on both sides for them both to say we were wrong?

I have a personal attraction to the Missouri Synod as many family members are within those ranks. thought I have quite a few southern Baptist in the family to and not as found of their theology.

A Little side note I could easily convert to Orthodox ( I love the Divine Liturgy of the Greeks ) but for breaking communion with Rome.

It was that that brought me back from a Protestant(sorry ) church to the Catholic Church that link back to the Apostles and to the See of Peter. I am a weird case though as I did not know till I was back in the Catholic Church that the Baptist did not believe in the Real Presence in the Eucharist. to me that was a no brainier. I mean why would you give up the the reality of that for a symbol?

Any way I think the more the people in the pews are able to talk in the Spirit of Christ like this the closer reunion comes.
 
oneGODoneCHURCH said:
QUOTE]

My wife’s family is from the Louisville area. They live in Floyd’s Knobs, Jeffersonville, and Jeffersontown, KY.

What Church do you go to?

They primarily attend St. Martin’s, but there is also a country church in the Knobs that they frequent.
Click to expand...
 
CHESTERTONRULES said:
oneGODoneCHURCH;5073690:
QUOTE]

My wife’s family is from the Louisville area. They live in Floyd’s Knobs, Jeffersonville, and Jeffersontown, KY.

What Church do you go to?

They primarily attend St. Martin’s, but there is also a country church in the Knobs that they frequent.
Click to expand...
I attend St Mary’s of the Annunciation in New Albany, I do get over to Louisvill from time to time to St Martin’s for the EF Mass.
Click to expand...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top