Are they married in God's eyes

[Amateis]

If marriage is a covenant between man and woman through God, and the Catholic Church is God’s true church, and Catholics must be married through THE Church, by God’s ministers (priests), than what does the Church consider as far as secular/prostestant marriages? Just a thought I’ve had and couldn’t come up with anything on my own.

In Christ
C. Amateis

 

[system]

Amateis:

what does the Church consider as far as secular/prostestant marriages?

The Church recognizes marriages of non-Catholics. For example, if a married Protestant couple converts, they do not have to then have a Catholic wedding. I hope that is what you were asking.

 

[Amateis]

Can you explain further? And what about if someone is married by a justice of the peace, or a Vegas drive-thru.

 

[system]

There are an infinite number of situations and I am no expert. But, I believe civil weddings of non-Catholics are recognized as well. To anticipate what might be asked next, divorce is not recognized.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

As long as the Marriage is valid and legal and the persons marry according to the laws of their Faith. That Marraige is recognized by the Catholic Church as valid unless proven otherwise (such as divorced and re-married). If both are also validly Baptized then it is also a Sacrament.

 

[Deacon2006]

Does a muslim with four wives, each married in a lawful way according to the state and religion in an Arab country have valid marriages in the eyes of the church for the last three wives?

God Bless

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I would think not applying the same principle used to prohibit divorce and re-marriage. A person cannot enter into a new marriage while their first spouse is still living unless the first marriage is determined to be invalid.

 

[Deacon2006]

Makes sense, thanks

Reputation points for you :tiphat:

God Bless

 

[Brendan]

The Church generally recognizes what is called a ‘natural’ marriage.

This is a non Sacramental marriage between two non-Baptized persons, two Jews for example., or between a Baptized person and an unbaptized person.

While not Sacramental, the marital act conducted between these two persons does not constitute fornication. (I think a natural marriage is limited to one male and one female though, but the multiple wives of the OT Patriarchs does pose an interesting question)

Since a ‘natural’ marriage is not Sacramental, it is dissoluble via divorce.(the divorce of Moses or ‘Pauline privilege’, in the case of two unbaptized persons, or the ‘Privilege of Faith’, in the case of a baptized person and an unbaptized person.

A Sacramental marriage is only possible between 2 baptized persons, one male and one female. The Sacrament is conferred by each person on the other, thus the male and the female are ordinary ministers of this Sacrament. The priest is there as a witness on the part of the Church.

This Sacramental nature of Marriage does include most Protestant marriages. Protestants are not subject to the form used by the Church, so a lack of Canonical Form does not apply. In a Tribunal, a Protestant marriage is assumed to be as Sacramental as a Catholic one. Two Protestants converting who were married in their church would generally not need to have their marriage con-validated.

 

[Sunniva]

Deacon2006:

Does a muslim with four wives, each married in a lawful way according to the state and religion in an Arab country have valid marriages in the eyes of the church for the last three wives?

God Bless

Hi, Deacon2006 and all.

I found this in the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

2387 The predicament of a man who, desiring to convert to the Gospel, is obliged to repudiate one or more wives with whom he has shared years of conjugal life, is understandable. However polygamy is not in accord with the moral law." [Conjugal] communion is radically contradicted by polygamy; this, in fact, directly negates the plan of God which was revealed from the beginning, because it is contrary to the equal personal dignity of men and women who in matrimony give themselves with a love that is total and therefore unique and exclusive."[179] The Christian who has previously lived in polygamy has a grave duty in justice to honour the obligations contracted in regard to his former wives and his children.

And Canon Law say this:

CIC can. 1148:
§1. When he receives baptism in the Catholic Church, a non-baptized man who has several non-baptized wives at the same time can retain one of them after the others have been dismissed, if it is hard for him to remain with the first one. The same is valid for a non-baptized woman who has several non-baptized husbands at the same time.
§2. In the cases mentioned in §1, marriage must be contracted in legitimate form after baptism has been received, and the prescripts about mixed marriages, if necessary, and the other matters required by the law are to be observed.
§3. Keeping in mind the moral, social and economic conditions of places and of persons, the local ordinary is to take care that the needs of the first wife and the others dismissed are sufficiently provided for according to the norms of justice, Christian charity, and natural equity.

I hope this clear up your question. I once asked this question myself on another messageboard and was provided a link to the Cathecism and Canon Law. My previous marriage was with a Muslim in a Muslim marriage ceremony. I was granted the Petrine Privilege.

 

[Deacon2006]

Sunniva:

Hi, Deacon2006 and all.

I found this in the Catechism of the Catholic Church…
And Canon Law say this:…

I hope this clear up your question. I once asked this question myself on another messageboard and was provided a link to the Cathecism and Canon Law. My previous marriage was with a Muslim in a Muslim marriage ceremony. I was granted the Petrine ( Pauline ?) Privilege.

Tremendous post and thank you for sharing such a personal story. :clapping:

God Bless

 

[Gertrude]

Amateis:

Can you explain further? And what about if someone is married by a justice of the peace, or a Vegas drive-thru.

If the people who get married do not think of themselves as “churched”, their marriage is valid but not blessed, i.e. they cannot receive the Sacraments until it is convalidated, or blessed, by the Church. Marriages that are performed in non-Catholic churches by non-Catholics ministers are considered a valid marriage, but again, must be blessed by the Church if they convert to Catholicism. If both are Catholics and elope–that is forbidden, their marriage is not recognized as legal and they are living in sin, must go to Reconciliation, and have their union convalidated. If only one is Catholic and knows they should get married in the Church but elope, that’s illegal, too, and living in sin. It’s best to talk to a priest in an interview to know what is needed.

Hope that helps,

 

[system]

Gertrude:

Hope that helps,

Actually, it confuses me. And it’s wrong in places - I think - depending on what you mean, because I can’t really tell. Converts do not need convalidation (aka blessing). And the business about eloping, and being “churched”, is just too imprecise.

Quoting from “Catholicism for Dummies”, which doesn’t quite get it right either:

A convalidation ceremony is needed when a Catholic couple gets married in a civil or non-Catholic ceremony [melman: where a dispensation was not obtained; see below]. Even if only one of them is Catholic, it’s an invalid sacrament, because Catholics must always follow Church law. If two baptized but non-Catholic Christians get married, however, in a civil ceremony or in any religious denomination, the CC does recognize that as being valid as long as it’s the first marriage for both of them.
…
If a Catholic gets married by a JP, ship captain, mayor or Protestant minister, and hasn’t obtained a dispensation from the local Catholic bishop, then that marriage is invalid, and the Catholic isn’t allowed to receive Communion until that union is sanctioned by the Church in a convalidation. This often happens when a nonpracticing Catholic doesn’t realize that a non-Catholic minister can still marry the couple in a non-Catholic ceremony with the CC’s blessing as long as the couple meets with a priest or deacon and still fulfills all the same Pre-Cana preparations as everyone else.

 

[Sunniva]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunniva
*Hi, Deacon2006 and all.

I found this in the Catechism of the Catholic Church…
And Canon Law say this:…

I hope this clear up your question. I once asked this question myself on another messageboard and was provided a link to the Cathecism and Canon Law. My previous marriage was with a Muslim in a Muslim marriage ceremony. I was granted the Petrine ( Pauline ?)* Privilege.

Deacon2006:

Tremendous post and thank you for sharing such a personal story. :clapping:

God Bless

It was a Petrine Privilege. I was baptised Lutheran as an infant. My then husband is a non-baptised cradle Muslim. I converted to Islam in my early teens because I didn’t understand and therefore didn’t believe in the Trinity. That’s a long story and I will one day soon share my conversion story about how I came (or rather is on my way) to Rome.

 

[goducks27]

So after reading the comments mentioned, my question is this: Can two Catholics who want to be married in a ceremony outdoors (for their love of God’s Creation) have the blessing of the Church and still have a Sacremental ceremony? They would go through all the traditional requirements such as premarital counseling, etc…

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

The answer would be no. Unless they could convince the Bishop that there is some really compelling reason to allow it.