Are they pushing elementary school students a bit to hard in the U.S. today?

[aspawloski4th]

There is nothing wrong with labor jobs. Or trades jobs. A country shouldn’t be without them. And at the risk of getting into a full blown argument I must say that I feel that I have met my share of college educated people who really don’t seem to show that the money spent on their education was used very well…It got them a good paying job with authority but I’ve seen people without a degree demonstate better management skills at times…But please let’s stick to elementary school on this one. And we may be paying welfare for a good number of people,college educated or not if the economy continues in the direction it is going. And the college jobs are getting shipped overseas almost as quickly as the manufacturing jobs anymore. I think IBM offerred jobs to it’s employees if they moved to the country’s their moving too. And I think the wage will be equivalant to the country’s that they are moving too.(but I don’t know the wage thing for a fact) but if it becomes the new trend…the college loans will never be paid back. There are alot of people who didn’t go to college and there always will be. I don’t think it’s all it’s cracked up to be. I think if someone trully desires to learn something they can do so in college…but I think the majority of students are only in college for a bigger paycheck than the “brainless guy” and alot of them that come out are not really worth a bigger paycheck than the brainless guy. I’ve seen a few come out in my time that really don’t want to work. They didn’t want to work for the amount of time they were in college and they don’t want to work now. And they definitely feel they are far above the brainless guys job although I have yet to figure why. I think the whole college thing is highly overrated. And I don’t think it is so necessary for most that go… Like I said if someone is really truly into learning something about something and their mind and spirit are set on it, they can probably achieve great things in their field… But I think most are just there for money…just like the brainless guy is there for money…But who knows maybe the brainless guy really likes his job… and actually knows what he is doing rather than pretending.

It's not a matter of what I think of labor jobs, which actually is a mixed opinion by the way. It's a matter of those jobs are drying up and don't pay as well as they used to. The rightfully so phrase I was using was referring to A GM worker making 20 dollars an hour for pulling a lever all day, sorry , but thats why they are bankrupt now, for allowing that to go on. That pull the lever worker should of been making 9 dollars an hour, Thats what he would of been making at most other facotries that supply GM. This is 2009 ,not 1959. Here in Michigan we are in a major depression because of the attitude you can base an econemy on what you did in the 1950's, you can't anymore and Michigan is finding that out the hardway. Even what we traditionally call trades are now much more advanced and need a good education before entering tradeschool for that trade, If you saw what a simple electrician has to learn to be certified these days it would blow your mind, To me "honorallble" work is good and fine, but honorable is not as important as doe's it pay the bills, put enough food on the table for my diebetic wife's sugar not to crash, keep my teeth from rotting out out of my mouth, and yes a few extras, I happen to be a novice antique radio collector, nothing grandiose. It's either drive our kids harder or become a 3rd world nation in our lifetime, right now I see that latter happening.

 

[CWBetts]

My daughter just had a final exam with fractions in 2nd grade.

Nothing wrong with that

 

[human_being]

It’s not a matter of what I think of labor jobs, which actually is a mixed opinion by the way. It’s a matter of those jobs are drying up and don’t pay as well as they used to. The rightfully so phrase I was using was referring to A GM worker making 20 dollars an hour for pulling a lever all day, sorry , but thats why they are bankrupt now, for allowing that to go on. That pull the lever worker should of been making 9 dollars an hour, Thats what he would of been making at most other facotries that supply GM. This is 2009 ,not 1959. Here in Michigan we are in a major depression because of the attitude you can base an econemy on what you did in the 1950’s, you can’t anymore and Michigan is finding that out the hardway. Even what we traditionally call trades are now much more advanced and need a good education before entering tradeschool for that trade, If you saw what a simple electrician has to learn to be certified these days it would blow your mind, To me “honorallble” work is good and fine, but honorable is not as important as doe’s it pay the bills, put enough food on the table for my diebetic wife’s sugar not to crash, keep my teeth from rotting out out of my mouth, and yes a few extras, I happen to be a novice antique radio collector, nothing grandiose. It’s either drive our kids harder or become a 3rd world nation in our lifetime, right now I see that latter happening.

What about the bankers,whom I suppuose are all possessors of degrees. What were they paid? It’s funny I never hear that . Maybe you’ll find the salaries of a few high ranking officials but I’ve never seen the numbers on salaries of the employees of the banking systems that collapsed. I kind of think we’re in a major depression for alot of different reasons. Mostly because of unfair trade laws. I think you could find alot of “degreed” people in alot of corporations who also suck alot of money out of profits just because the company’s only hire workers with degree’s for certain positions.

I am in trucking and it seems to me that the companies could replace some of the "degreed" bosses with an assistant manager from Domino's Pizza,or a taxi cab dispatcher and alot of routes would be handled better. And alot more money saved. And if I'd be able to search for the money wasted on these unnecessary degreed bosses it would be just as disgusting if not more, than the $20.00/hr. lever puller.  9.00/hr. doesn't buy a house or raise a family.  They are the country.  They are the numbers.  What do we do with them?   Medicate them while in elementary school( like my stepson [he's not medicated yet but the school has been "nicely" pushing for it] and a bunch of other kids up and down my nearby blocks)? They're the same type of kids that went to Vo-Tech school in high school with me. Their kidneys will be shot by the age of 35. Alot of kids are never gonna take to books.  And to me it looks quite possible that the damages that some medications do, may prevent these kids from ever even being able to work a trade.  

As long as their is "stuff", it will need to be hauled and warehoused.  And as long as there is a need for transportation, we will need people to drive it (busses, trains, airplanes), make it and repair it. As long as there are needs for housing, the houses will need builders........and they shouldn't need degrees to do it....and they should be Americans.....and they should be paid a good wage(enough to buy a house and raise a family).............and people should not be ashmed of making a decent wage for doing it.....and people should not be jealous of that wage because an uneducated person is making that wage...

 

[human_being]

Getting back to the thread topic and some of the scary results of it…

I think it is very scary and eye opening to think that a gov’t required imposition on it’s children to conform or end up on a special bus, with special social workers and psychiatrists and psychologists in the special school or classroom is stepping into a very wierd area…The whole program my step son is in is gov’t funded. And they are very interested in givnnig you all the help it takes to get all the gov’t funding you need to pay for the program…the medicines and all…And we have been offerrred the same program throughout the summer although it appears that is more recreational. And once they know you are getting gov’t funding I suppose the push to medicate will become more and more…because a state payed psychiatrist is in charge of the program and what psychiatrists do is prescribe medication. It’s almost like Nazi experiments or something…Either conform to the gov’t education system or we have ways of making you conform…And I suppose I as a step-parent will eventually be considered abusive if I don’t feel like allowing him to be medicated…He (and his classmates) are probably not too different than myself and alot of the kids I grew up with. I don’t think they spent enough time with the basics with him in school. My daughter had a hard time with basic phonics in Kindergarten yet the teacher spent some of the class time teaching Spanish. And the push on homework made the boy hate school. I don’t bring my work home, why should he?

 

[aspawloski4th]

What about the bankers,whom I suppuose are all possessors of degrees. What were they paid? It’s funny I never hear that . Maybe you’ll find the salaries of a few high ranking officials but I’ve never seen the numbers on salaries of the employees of the banking systems that collapsed. I kind of think we’re in a major depression for alot of different reasons. Mostly because of unfair trade laws. I think you could find alot of “degreed” people in alot of corporations who also suck alot of money out of profits just because the company’s only hire workers with degree’s for certain positions.

I am in trucking and it seems to me that the companies could replace some of the “degreed” bosses with an assistant manager from Domino’s Pizza,or a taxi cab dispatcher and alot of routes would be handled better. And alot more money saved. And if I’d be able to search for the money wasted on these unnecessary degreed bosses it would be just as disgusting if not more, than the $20.00/hr. lever puller. 9.00/hr. doesn’t buy a house or raise a family. They are the country. They are the numbers. What do we do with them? Medicate them while in elementary school( like my stepson [he’s not medicated yet but the school has been “nicely” pushing for it] and a bunch of other kids up and down my nearby blocks)? They’re the same type of kids that went to Vo-Tech school in high school with me. Their kidneys will be shot by the age of 35. Alot of kids are never gonna take to books. And to me it looks quite possible that the damages that some medications do, may prevent these kids from ever even being able to work a trade.

As long as their is “stuff”, it will need to be hauled and warehoused. And as long as there is a need for transportation, we will need people to drive it (busses, trains, airplanes), make it and repair it. As long as there are needs for housing, the houses will need builders…and they shouldn’t need degrees to do it…and they should be Americans…and they should be paid a good wage(enough to buy a house and raise a family)…and people should not be ashmed of making a decent wage for doing it…and people should not be jealous of that wage because an uneducated person is making that wage…

First I was explaining Michigan’s depression, which precedes our country as a whole by at least 5 years , if not 10 easily. All the jobs you mention in your post, yes will still exist, but in less numbers as time goes by, as more eficient ways are found to do those jobs. Thats the way things progress over time. and that goes back even before the invention of the cotton gin. As for the banking system, that is a total failure of American education, especially in history. Everyone who knows their world history knows very well that floating currencie’s(not based on gold or another standard) can’t work forever, and we are paying for that now. The Swiss Frank (based on gold) presently is doing OK. Whether we like it or not( and I personally don’t) we are in a global competition. The better educated American’s are the more ready they are to handle it. The less educated Americans are the quicker we get to the back of the line and the living standard goes down. Thats the deck of cards we are dealt out thats what we have but no choice to go with. I dont want to hear anything about kids can’t or won’t do what it takes. I was in special ed for multiple reason till the 9th grade , I worked my way out of special ed and graduated from a Catholic highschool, and earned A double major degree in college. (Geography and Meteorology). It starts with the parent not allowing the child to say he can’t and telling the child he will do it.

 

[human_being]

First I was explaining Michigan’s depression, which precedes our country as a whole by at least 5 years , if not 10 easily. All the jobs you mention in your post, yes will still exist, but in less numbers as time goes by, as more eficient ways are found to do those jobs. Thats the way things progress over time. and that goes back even before the invention of the cotton gin. As for the banking system, that is a total failure of American education, especially in history. Everyone who knows their world history knows very well that floating currencie’s(not based on gold or another standard) can’t work forever, and we are paying for that now. The Swiss Frank (based on gold) presently is doing OK. Whether we like it or not( and I personally don’t) we are in a global competition. The better educated American’s are the more ready they are to handle it. The less educated Americans are the quicker we get to the back of the line and the living standard goes down. Thats the deck of cards we are dealt out thats what we have but no choice to go with. I dont want to hear anything about kids can’t or won’t do what it takes. I was in special ed for multiple reason till the 9th grade , I worked my way out of special ed and graduated from a Catholic highschool, and earned A double major degree in college. (Geography and Meteorology). It starts with the parent not allowing the child to say he can’t and telling the child he will do it.

I’m glad you overcame and are doing fine. And I agree on the gold standard view. Everything now seems too easily manipulateable. As for progressing over time, I believe we as a people in this country have a say on that, and that’s why I post and let my opinions known.

 

[river444]

My daughter just had a final exam with fractions in 2nd grade.

Final exams in 2nd grade?

 

[human_being]

Final exams in 2nd grade?

Well, they are the final exams for the year. It’s catholic school. I think the only one similar to a final in high school involving the whole year is religion and rightly so. The rest were exams for the final quarter but there was alot of stuff. She did well. Not so well on reading but I think they did more than one test throughout the week though. She didn’t start out well with reading in K but I am happy with her reading skills to date even if she got a 69 ont the test. The rest of her grades were B’s and C’s. She did much better than I expected. It was a busy quarter. Easter, Mother’s day,her 1st Holy Communion,a slumber party for her sister’s birthday. Last week the teacher told me she wanted her to repeat the year but it’s up to me I think. I think I’ll check into summer school or Sylvan or something instead. She had a few weeks of slacking but I’m happy enough with her results that I feel she can move on with some summer help.

 

[river444]

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Sr_Sally]

Not really. I think part of the issue is indeed ‘curriculum creep’ into many un-necessary topics. I don’t agree with just drilling basic skills, but don’t think that elementary kids need to be going through the ‘counseling’ and ‘family life’ type curriculums schools teach now. My kids didn’t have homework until about 2nd/3rd grade and even then it was just about 10-20 minutes a night (not including reading time ). Now that they are high school/jr high they have plenty of homework, but I very rarely need to explain anything to them–just make sure it gets done!

I know that there are movements pushing to make the school year and school day longer. I can see how that would benefit children who don’t get quiet time at home to do homework or who don’t have books to read etc at home. But I really would hate to give up our family time. We have homeschooled before so if those measures get past before the kids have graduated, we’ll be homeschooling again.

 

[4elise]

Can you give any facts to back up the statement that we are so far behind other countries? When I hear statements like that I would like to see proof,because I find it hard to believe. I’ve heard statements stating that so many other countries are so much farther ahead my whole life and I really haven’t seen the results. I’ve always heard that the Chinese were so much smarter yet their technologies and products don’t seem so much better. I’ve heard the same type of comparisons about the Japanese and about India. Yet I don’t see so much proof other than Japanese electronics, and I don’t doubt that our electronics would be just as advanced if people would be willing to pay a bit more for the labor involved. I also heard the stories of how the Russians and East Germans were so much more advanced yet their countries have collapsed. Just some thoughts, I would like to see some proof to back the statement that we are not as advanced as others. Thank you.

I realize this is only anecdotal- but a family I know with two very bright sons - 5th and 8th grade are currently serving as lay missionaries in Cameroon - while they were way ahead on English and writing, and the use of computers - the children there had been taught world geography, math, physics at very young ages and had mastery in these subjects that well surpassed the kids from the states - they had to really hustle to catch up…

I have a big issue however with the amount of homework kids get today - and the expectation that parents will be the second teacher - I remember reviewing to prepare for a spelling, geography test or even doing flash cards with my mom (I’m in my 50’s) but the school had no expectation that parents would sit for hours overseeing homework. I think what is lacking is the school teaching the students HOW to learn - giving them better tools. Parents do have the responsibility to limit TV and video game time to ensure that the kids put the time in, but really I don’t think it should be expected that parents take on a second full time job teaching their kids after school. It isn’t fair to either the parents or the child.

 

[4elise]

Well, they are the final exams for the year. It’s catholic school. I think the only one similar to a final in high school involving the whole year is religion and rightly so. The rest were exams for the final quarter but there was alot of stuff. She did well. Not so well on reading but I think they did more than one test throughout the week though. She didn’t start out well with reading in K but I am happy with her reading skills to date even if she got a 69 ont the test. The rest of her grades were B’s and C’s. She did much better than I expected. It was a busy quarter. Easter, Mother’s day,her 1st Holy Communion,a slumber party for her sister’s birthday. Last week the teacher told me she wanted her to repeat the year but it’s up to me I think. I think I’ll check into summer school or Sylvan or something instead. She had a few weeks of slacking but I’m happy enough with her results that I feel she can move on with some summer help.

I would second that choice on some summer enrichment - holding kids back - unless it is REALLY necessary is just a huge scar - we held our youngest back when we were changing schools mid year - and he really resented it for years. School was always a struggle, and I think this actually may have made it worse for him.

 

[royal_archer]

They have to push them harder, they’ve crammed so much into the K-12 curriculum that doesn’t belong that they have to introduce complex subjects earlier and earlier.

K-8 should be good fundamental skills. Reading, Writing, Arithmetic, basic Science, History, and study and research skills.

9-12 should build upon that foundation with more advanced exercises.

Instead they throw in evolution, sex education, and a bunch of other topics that should wait until college level before they are broached.

Our schools also have to many social engineering classes (tax the rich, recycle, stop global warming, save the rodents, etc). There are to many inservice days and recreational activities such as movies, parties, assemblies, etc. My kids seldom have homework and are both honor roll. But the biggest indicator is when they start complaining about how slow everything is. My solution, allow the smart kids to test out of classes and move on so the teachers can concentrate on the students who need the help.

 

[Tyuiop411]

I have a big issue however with the amount of homework kids get today - and the expectation that parents will be the second teacher - I remember reviewing to prepare for a spelling, geography test or even doing flash cards with my mom (I’m in my 50’s) but the school had no expectation that parents would sit for hours overseeing homework. I think what is lacking is the school teaching the students HOW to learn - giving them better tools. Parents do have the responsibility to limit TV and video game time to ensure that the kids put the time in, but really I don’t think it should be expected that parents take on a second full time job teaching their kids after school. It isn’t fair to either the parents or the child.

I can attest to this i just finished High School this year and my basic subject teachers were the worst. My math and history teachers were the worst though we would walk in and a assignment would be on the board and we where just expected to figure it out and then they’d take roll and leave and we would be alone trying to figure out trigonometry. and this happened all through my school career it was given to us with little to no teaching and we where just expected to do it and be done by tomorrow. All and all i think that Americas students do pretty good considering that most of them were self taught. But the worst part by far is when the monitor comes to observe once a year and all of a sudden we have a “Perfect” teacher that disappears once they leave.

God Bless

-Tyler

 

[royal_archer]

I can attest to this i just finished High School this year and my basic subject teachers were the worst. My math and history teachers were the worst though we would walk in and a assignment would be on the board and we where just expected to figure it out and then they’d take roll and leave and we would be alone trying to figure out trigonometry. and this happened all through my school career it was given to us with little to no teaching and we where just expected to do it and be done by tomorrow. All and all i think that Americas students do pretty good considering that most of them were self taught. But the worst part by far is when the monitor comes to observe once a year and all of a sudden we have a “Perfect” teacher that disappears once they leave.

God Bless

-Tyler

In actuality I think you are better off if you learn to teach yourself. Out in the real world those who can teach themselves tend to get the better jobs. Those who have to be told how to do things are sometimes thought of as lesser employees.

The thing is, once a child has mastered a topic they should be allowed to move on and not be stuck in a classroom with several slower students waiting for the slower students to catchup.

 

[jmcrae]

In actuality I think you are better off if you learn to teach yourself. Out in the real world those who can teach themselves tend to get the better jobs. Those who have to be told how to do things are sometimes thought of as lesser employees.

But if you are never taught the building blocks of knowledge, or where to go for the information on the subject that you want to learn, then you will still not get the good jobs.

I spent two years working as a computer programmer at a school for learning disabled children, assisting the teachers to create computer assisted learning aids for the kids, and what they did for those kids, I really believe should be done for all children. I learned more in those two years than I did in 12 years of public school - for example, they taught the kids the building blocks of the English language. Instead of throwing a spelling list at the kids and asking them to memorize it, they actually walked the kids through the 44 sounds and the 150 letter-combinations that make those 44 sounds, and the rules that govern the way the letter combinations can or cannot go together.

Every one of those kids came out of there with the ability to spell common English words perfectly, with no memorization required, no lists of “exceptions to the rule” (because if there are exceptions, then it isn’t a rule; it’s just a common instance) and no hesitation - all the kid had to do was sound out the word and go through his list of letter combinations that make those sounds, and apply a very few simple, logical rules to put the pieces of the word together. With a ton less homework than the normal kid that has to memorize the spelling of every word of the English language, because nobody’s bothering to tell the normal kid about the mechanics of how the written form of the English language actually works.

However, the catch is that you have to have teachers who are, themselves, well educated in these things, and willing to put in the work it takes to create a curriculum where the kids can actually learn this information - which costs money and takes time, so only those who are desperate enough to take the time and spend the money (ie: the parents of children with learning disabilities) will do what it takes to get these programs into their schools.

 

[GodLovesTheSpek]

I found elementary school to be easy. I always had access to a library and would spend free time just wandering the stacks picking out books of all sorts that grabbed my interest, do some reading, move on to the next book. I did this throughout my elementary, middle, high school and college. In college I would spend hours going through the stacks. So much to be learned just sitting there on the shelves.

 

[royal_archer]

But if you are never taught the building blocks of knowledge, or where to go for the information on the subject that you want to learn, then you will still not get the good jobs.
.

Agreed that is helpful to have people there to teach techniques and to help the kids along the way. The important thing is that the kids push themselves and try to figure things out instead of sitting there waiting to be spoon fed the finite list of items that may show up on the test.

 

[GodLovesTheSpek]

I had and have a strong interest in geography, weather, and how things work. Geography, leads to an interest in history, weather leads to physical sciences and how things work leads to being able to do things for yourself and others. Educational and practical.

 

[promethius]

I’m in my 40’s and it seems like my kids have had to learn much more advanced academics in much lower grades than when I was in school. It seems that they have to put much more time and effort into school, after school hours than when I was young also. And I have to put in much more effort with helping them succeed than my parents ever did. Which is one of my main points. My parents never had to help me after school but it seems I constantly have to help my kids and they don’t get it very well because I am far from being a teacher. I don’t think I started having to do homework until at least 3rd grade, yet my kids started having homework in Kindergarten. I’m just interested in hearing some other peoples views. I posted it under moral because if we are pushing them to hard, I feel it is a moral problem or topic.

Well, studies have shown that children learn faster at younger ages. Essentially, when you went through school we were going about it backwards: avoiding teaching fast paced and complex subjects to children. The transition occured when I was in school and is still ongoing. As children are being taught more at a younger age, studies are finding that there is, thus far, more capacity for learning as well. It sounds fishy, but I had a first grader explain to me worm anatomy (something I learned in 4th grade) right before his mom told me that he’s been reading for almost a year (something I learned in second grade).