Are United Methodists anti-Catholicism?

[Steveabrous]

Even given your experiences and relationships, capitalizing this and even stating this is firebrand talk. I think you of all people should know that this closes doors. I wouldn’t call Protestanism breeding anti-Catholicism any more than Orthodoxy or any other religion. Just because someone isn’t Catholic no matter what faith they are, doesn’t mean that they are anti-Catholic or what they believe is anti-Catholic. The same logic can be said around the Orthodox and other religions too.

I am not making a statement about protestants individully, I am making a statement about protestantism in general. I, in my previous post, stated that I know most protestants have an agree to disagree attitude as do I otherwise I wouldn’t be married for 15 years to a Protestant. But my statement is accurate Protestantism exists because it disagrees with the church. The whole point to protestantism is its not the Catholic church. And this is were anti catholicism comes from. To be sure it is a lot better then it was even 30 years ago, and I am hopeful for the future as I am a big believer in ecumenism. But the truth is the truth

 

[TJ872014]

Just because a Protestant is not Catholic, does not mean that they are anti-Catholic. This sort of rhetoric does not enhanse our conversations with our fellow “separated” Christians. I wish Catholics on CAF would stop this kind of talk because it closes doors and not open them to to others. I know that this kind of open door is what initially drew me to the Catholic Church not this kind of firebrand talk.

I appreciate the many responses to my question - receiving various views, sharing of knowledge helps us all!

robwar - I don’t know if I saw a post that rhetorically claimed this - as my concern is receiving direct messages that ARE anti-Catholic outside of CAF.

I plan to continue to pray… to take all the advice not to confront too direct unless in a private meeting. To date, I seem to be better with words on paper vs. verbally - so I will wait to meet or say anything to him.

Thank you again!

Peace,
T

 

[Randy_Carson]

The ties to Anglican are in the fact that John Wesley was an Anglican priest and Methodism came about due to his preaching. While, I think liturgies can vary in UMC, I did grow up with a “high liturgy” which would have been truer to it’s Anglican roots. UMC though is not a part of the Anglican tradition and denomination. We had a similar type liturgy to the Catholic Mass, we did say the apostle creed. Communion though was only once a month while in Anglican I think it is every Sunday.

Sounds like the 70’s - at least that’s what I remember from those days.

 

[robwar]

Sounds like the 70’s - at least that’s what I remember from those days.

I did grow up in the 1970’s

 

[Randy_Carson]

I did grow up in the 1970’s

I was confirmed around '73-'75, not sure. We visited a Jewish Synagogue (come to think of it, is there any other kind?), and had a talk from a Rabbi.

 

[robwar]

I was confirmed around '73-'75, not sure. We visited a Jewish Synagogue (come to think of it, is there any other kind?), and had a talk from a Rabbi.

Yes, I was 12 and that puts me 1973 time frame. We were right down the road from the Catholic Church. I would imagine that the synagogue was close by?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Yes, I was 12 and that puts me 1973 time frame. We were right down the road from the Catholic Church. I would imagine that the synagogue was close by?

Close enough in Greensboro…not a large city at the time…or now for that matter by some standards.

I still have one of the hymnals from our Church which mom gave to me…some great hymns in there.

 

[Even_So]

Contarini and robwar make nice non combative “arguments” or maybe some form of apologetics is the word. Ironic for me the Wesleys were mentioned, as i attend a Wesleyan Church. For now anyways, as i am looking for more spirituality. Nothing against the Pastor, who brings excellent messages. He also told me a story about he was supposed to meet three people for breakfast and one didn’t show. A Priest showed up but his friend did not show. So the Catholic Priest was invited over by the Protestants , and good times were had by all!. Possibly another sign of the Apocalypse maybe. The Wesleys were of course the founders of Methodism as some of you know better than i. But as a Protestant, i don’t agree with all Methodist practices of today. They do not follow what John and Charles preached. So that would make me anti-Methodist, no? The UCC is the first church to ordain a gay minister. I don’t agree with that. I went to a United Church of Christ affiliated church which had a reverend with a Methodist background and the only time i heard “Amen!” was when the Rev took a shot at the Baptists. So as Jesus said, He has come to create a division among us. His apostles did it. We do it. We are human. There is just the Catholic/Protestant thing that has been going on for a few centuries, and would it be fair to call the people accusing us of being anti-Catholic an anti Protestant? It’s a whole lot easier to attack what we have less in common with, rather than those of us who are more similar. See Israel. It will not end til Jesus returns. And i will call out a Protestant here if i don’t think they represent us in a fair and civil manner.

 

[ltwin]

I once read here that the Methodists are the American version of the Church of England, which is the English version of the Catholic church (in summary, formed to make King Henry’s life easier).

The American version of the Church of England is the Episcopal Church. Both the Church of England and the Episcopal Church are members of the Anglican Communion.

The Methodists originally were an evangelical “renewal movement” within the Church of England. John Wesley, the founder, was an Anglican priest and remained in the Church of England all his life. However, for a variety of reasons, Methodists in America and Britain formed their own churches.

 

[Contarini]

Wesley formed a separate American Methodist church in his lifetime, whereas British Methodism didn’t become wholly separate from Anglicanism until after his death. Anglicanism in America was regionally limited and not very evangelistic, and after the Revolution it was in disarray (since the C of E wouldn’t give them their own independent bishops). Thus, Wesley believed he was justified in setting American Methodism loose as its own church. That’s why American Methodism has bishops and British Methodism doesn’t, although Wesley wanted them to call themselves “superintendents” to avoid unnecessary offense. (Wesley had come to believe that there was no intrinsic difference between presbyters and bishops, and the succession of American Methodist bishops thus derives from Wesley, who was himself only a presbyter.)

The Methodist Episcopal Church was organized in 1784, three years before the American Anglicans finally got a bishop of their own (Samuel Seabury, who went to Scotland and got the Scottish Episcopalians, who were themselves at odds with the C of E at the time, to consecrate him) and organized themselves as the Protestant Episcopal Church. So a case could be made that the UMC (successor of the MEC) has a prior claim to be the American representative of the Anglican heritage in America. But it would be a bit tenuous, and of course they don’t have a distinctively episcopal succession.

Edwin

 

[Picky_Picky]

Wesley formed a separate American Methodist church in his lifetime, whereas British Methodism didn’t become wholly separate from Anglicanism until after his death. Anglicanism in America was regionally limited and not very evangelistic, and after the Revolution it was in disarray (since the C of E wouldn’t give them their own independent bishops). Thus, Wesley believed he was justified in setting American Methodism loose as its own church. That’s why American Methodism has bishops and British Methodism doesn’t, although Wesley wanted them to call themselves “superintendents” to avoid unnecessary offense. (Wesley had come to believe that there was no intrinsic difference between presbyters and bishops, and the succession of American Methodist bishops thus derives from Wesley, who was himself only a presbyter.)

The Methodist Episcopal Church was organized in 1784, three years before the American Anglicans finally got a bishop of their own (Samuel Seabury, who went to Scotland and got the Scottish Episcopalians, who were themselves at odds with the C of E at the time, to consecrate him) and organized themselves as the Protestant Episcopal Church. So a case could be made that the UMC (successor of the MEC) has a prior claim to be the American representative of the Anglican heritage in America. But it would be a bit tenuous, and of course they don’t have a distinctively episcopal succession.

Edwin

I don’t know whether “the Scottish Episcopalians, who were themselves at odds with the C of E at the time” might be thought a bit broad brush (perhaps they were actually more at odds with the government’s requirement for them to break their oaths of allegiance to James II), but at any rate I trust no one will think that your “themselves” implies that Seabury himself was at odds with the C of E. He in fact wanted to be consecrated by Church of England bishops, but English law at that time required that a new bishop should swear allegiance, so he had to turn to the Scots. The law was shortly changed for cases like his, and the next three American bishops were consecrated by the English.

As for British Methodists: you are right, of course, that they have no bishops, but that may soon change. In 2014 both the Conference of the Methodist Church of Great Britain and the General Synod of the Church of England accepted these recommendations:

We recommend that the Faith and Order Commission of the Church of England and the Faith and Order Committee of the Methodist Church work together to bring forward proposals for:

i. the Methodist Church to consider afresh expressing the Conference’s ministry of oversight in a personal form of connexional, episcopal ministry and the Church of England to recognise that ministry in the Methodist Church as a sign of continuity in faith, worship and mission in a church that is in the apostolic succession;

ii. the Church of England and the Methodist Church to address the question of reconciling, with integrity, the existing presbyteral and diaconal ministries of our two churches, which would lead to the interchangeability of ministries.

 

[Contarini]

I don’t know whether “the Scottish Episcopalians, who were themselves at odds with the C of E at the time” might be thought a bit broad brush (perhaps they were actually more at odds with the government’s requirement for them to break their oaths of allegiance to James II), but at any rate I trust no one will think that your “themselves” implies that Seabury himself was at odds with the C of E. He in fact wanted to be consecrated by Church of England bishops, but English law at that time required that a new bishop should swear allegiance, so he had to turn to the Scots. The law was shortly changed for cases like his, and the next three American bishops were consecrated by the English.

The Scottish Episcopal Church was, I believe, not formally in communion with the C of E at the time.

American Anglicans who refused to swear allegiance were obviously also “at odds” with the C of E, in the sense that the C of E bishops refused to consecrate them.

I do not mean that Seabury, or for that matter the Non-Juring Scottish Episcopalians, had any problem with the C of E in principle, of course. It was a political issue (though as always with some theological underpinnings). I just didn’t want to go into it in too much detail.

Edwin

 

[Matthew_Light]

I’m very sorry that you are facing this kind of religious bigotry.

 

[Purgatory_Pete]

Keep in mind that in his own way he thinks he is doing God’s work.

Think back to when you would bake a cake with your children,
You were making it to the instructions but your young child
was making it their own way. The end result is you both want a cake.
But getting them onto the same page was a slow and delicate process,
once achieved all sides were satisfied with the results.

Treat it a little like you are making a cake with him,
Slow and patient, one ingredient at a time.
and though you may feel like it at times,
Just don’t smack him with the wooden spoon.

Buy a Catholic Catechism for your Niece to keep at home.
I’ll bet he reads it when no one else is around.
Just plant the seeds and let God do His work.

God Bless you and your new year.
for you and ALL of your family.

Pete:tiphat:

 

[ExMethodist]

I was raised in UMC and I can tell you from direct experience that they are probably the least “anti-Catholic” denomination. UMC is a big tent and the leadership (their bishops) would fall mostly in the liberal side of Protestantism. When I was being confirmed in the Church, we were taken to the nearest down the road Catholic Church, the priest spoke to us and this was done to teach us tolerance of other Christian groups. With that
being said about UMC, there are other Methodist groups such as Free Methodists and various Weslyan churches. Free Methodists are very conservative in their views and the one I knew from college, was rather anti-Catholic. The other Weslyan groups would be more similar to evangelical in theology and thinking. Are you sure that this guy was UMC or waIs he Free Methodist? I don’t think you are familar with all the different groups with in the Methodist rabge and I would have a hard time believing that this person is UMC.

Southern Methodists are another one - they formed in 1940 after the ME Church - South and the ME Church finally reunited. They are headquartered in SC now with 101 churches (one was in my hometown in SC and I had cousins growing up who were members.)

I just found an old newspaper article from 1960 in which the SC conference of the SMC opposed the election of a Catholic as president.

Echoing what everyone else said,the United Methodist Church is one of the least likely places you will hear overt criticism of Catholicism.

 

[robwar]

Southern Methodists are another one - they formed in 1940 after the ME Church - South and the ME Church finally reunited. They are headquartered in SC now with 101 churches (one was in my hometown in SC and I had cousins growing up who were members.)

I just found an old newspaper article from 1960 in which the SC conference of the SMC opposed the election of a Catholic as president.

Echoing what everyone else said,the United Methodist Church is one of the least likely places you will hear overt criticism of Catholicism.

I was not familiar with that branch. I think when people hear “Methodist” they usually think of UMC but I am wondering if he wasn’t UMC but one of these other smaller and more conservative type of groups all of which would trace back to John Wesley in one form or another.

 

[LisaA]

That having been said I have found UMC to be one of the least anti- Catholic organizations around. It does surprise me that a UMC minister would act towards Catholicism they way you would expect a Baptist to act.

I wonder if he feels threatened by his wife’s family religion because he may be concerned that she may decide to return. Which would make things awkward for him as a Protestant minister. Protestant ministers are supposed to be married with a very visible wife. If she dosen’t belong to the church he’s pastoring that can be a big problem for him. It could even kill his chances of Pastoring a church. Perhaps, she is already expressing a desire to return to the Catholic church which is causing him to lash out at.

I read through the various posts and this certainly makes a lot of sense to me. Also the possibility as another poster mentioned, that he was not raised a Methodist but from a more Evangelical tradition where I find most of the anti-Catholic rhetoric.

I converted to Catholicism from Methodism and was a very active member of my church. I never heard any anti-Catholic commentary from anyone. In fact my pastor said “You know I have thought about becoming Catholic but I have a disabled wife and children to support so that’s not an option.”

There IS a very important role for “Pastor’s Wife” and unfortunately “Pastor’s Kids” and those who don’t follow suit not only cause problems within the family but are often the reason the Pastor is moved or dismissed. (A very good reason to support Priestly celibacy). It sounds as if this young man has a plan for his (and her) life and if she strays back into the Church or shows interest in returning, this will create huge difficulties for him. Interestingly though if you watch EWTN’s The Journey Home, more than a few Protestant Pastors are among our most active and influential converts (Dr Scott Hahn for example). People often react out of fear and he may also be questioning his vocation as a Methodist Pastor and striking out as a defense.

Methodism has many outward signs that make it appear to be similar to the Catholic Church. After all it’s a great grandchild so to speak. It’s a liturgical church, has pretty significant centralization with respect to structure and finance, has Bishops, uses the Nicene Creed (short version as I recall), Baptism, Confirmation etc.

Unfortunately the Methodist church suffers from a desire more to be relevant than to be true. Women “pastors,” recognition of gay marriage, and most devastating for me, a support for abortion. That’s why I left initially and I’ve never regretted it. But no, Methodists are not anti-Catholic or frankly as ignorant of the Church’s teaching as are some from the fundamentalist and Evangelical tradition.

 

[ArchAngeles]

Methodism has many outward signs that make it appear to be similar to the Catholic Church. After all it’s a great grandchild so to speak. It’s a liturgical church, has pretty significant centralization with respect to structure and finance, has Bishops, uses the Nicene Creed (short version as I recall), Baptism, Confirmation etc.

That’s what the UMC I was in for so long was like.

Unfortunately the Methodist church suffers from a desire more to be relevant than to be true. Women “pastors,” recognition of gay marriage, and most devastating for me, a support for abortion. That’s why I left initially and I’ve never regretted it.

That’s what drove me out of the UMC initially as well.

 

[LisaA]

That’s what the UMC I was in for so long was like.

That’s what drove me out of the UMC initially as well.

Happy to hear you are joining the Church! Welcome!
Lisa