Are we ALL really sinners?

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Abrosz

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I have seen this sentiment many many times: “We are ALL sinners”. How can that be? Even a freshly conceived zygote is a “sinner”? Oh, well, maybe it is “tainted” by the original sin. But then the birth comes, and with it the act of baptism, which washes away the stain of the original sin… But, one split of a second later, the newborn becomes a “sinner” again? How? Without acting at all, and being of the age “below the age of reason”? What kind of “sin” has the newborn committed? Maybe not a mortal sin, but a venial sin? Is the first breath already a “sinful” act, which is not washed away by baptism?

Something does not compute here. 🙂 Maybe a qualified member of the clergy can explain?
 
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I believe that what is meant here is that we all have an inclination towards sin known as concupiscence, as well as a lack of sanctifying grace, both brought about by the sin of Adam and Eve.

As far as children are concerned, they are capable of sinning. They sin when they don’t listen to their parents, when they tell little lies, etc. What they are not is culpable for that sin. The sin still exists, we just don’t believe they are held responsible for it due to a lack of knowledge / reason.

Newborns have not committed any sins, but they lack sanctifying grace, which is why baptism is necessary. In that way they are considered to be in a state of sin. It’s nothing of their own doing, simply a default position for humanity due to that lack of grace.
 
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Original sin is essentially a privation of original justice, and I think it’s best to view it that way.
 
Without the ability to make rational choices, there is no sin. People have an inherent tendency towards sin at any age and we can definitely see this tendency in infancy and in childhood.

The Church sets the age of reason at age 7 as a marker, but people gradually develop better faculties of reason over time and they gradually become increasingly culpable as they develop. There isn’t something magical that happens specifically at age 7.
 
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You actually explained it well in your OP.
We are Conceived with original sin.
Baptism removes that.
People get baptized at different ages, so a baby or little child is considered innocent until the Age Of Reason (generally considered to be at age seven, but that’s not a hard rule).
After the age of reason, we are capable of committing Actual Sin (by our actions).

But because we are all born with original sin, that’s why we say we are “all sinners”.

It’s really nothing to get upset about, just to be aware of.
 
Abrosz said:
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I am not clergy.

It is a dogma of faith that once baptized, having received sanctifying grace, it is possible to remain free for life from any mortal sin. Venial sins are very likely. Voluntary venial sins can erode the moral fiber and lead to mortal sin.

Catechism of the Catholic Church
404 … Adam and Eve committed a personal sin , but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state .294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act. …

405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. …

403 … the Church baptizes for the remission of sins even tiny infants who have not committed personal sin. …

1863 Venial sin weakens charity; it manifests a disordered affection for created goods; it impedes the soul’s progress in the exercise of the virtues and the practice of the moral good; it merits temporal punishment. Deliberate and unrepented venial sin disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin.
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There are two things going on here.

First, as you note, every human (without special intervention by God) is subject to the effects of Original Sin. Even after baptism, we retain concupiscence. Now, unlike some Protestants, we don’t generally regard having concupiscence as sinful in itself, but it does mean we have a weakened will and a tendency toward sinning that original-model humans (Adam, Eve, Jesus, Mary by special intervention) don’t have.

Second, since we Catholics are already quick to point out that Paul’s “all have sinned” is not meant absolutely and universally (again, Jesus, plus Mary for us, and of course infants have not personally sinned), I think it is reasonable to take any such statement as referring to the adult humans who are the intended reading audience. In other words, it’s short for “Everyone who is capable of personal sin has done it at least once. You know you have.” It’s an acknowledgment that we all fall short, not a statement to be parsed so technically that we have to look for sin in zygotes, or wonder if God would force someone to sin if they seem to be making all the right decisions.
 
2 week old after baptism has no capacity to sin. As that infant grows and matures, they do begin to commit sin. At the age of reason they become culpable for sins.
 
Sometimes when a person goes on a rant about how awful a person is, they are terrible! Look at what they did!, the phrase ‘We are all sinners’ helps to snap the person out of their train of thought that they’re stuck in. It’s a useful tool that’s available to gently remind a person that we are all tainted with the same brush by our shared humanity. It is not implying that a 2 month old has sinned.
 
kapp19 said:
I’m not sure anyone would impute actual sin to infants.
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I’m not sure any of us here is The Just and Almighty Judge of human souls.

We simply don’t know. This apply to infants’ souls too. Only sinless human was The Most Blessed Virgin Mary (and Adam and Eve before fall).
 
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‘If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.’ - 1 John 2:8-10
 
No… we know… be serious… you know that a newborn baby is not committing actual sin.
 
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I have a dobt about it. Does it impossible for some people to be sinless?

Lord Jesus says:

“32"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full.” (Luke 6:32-34)

It seems there were some sinners that people must try to not be like them. How can they be sinner?
 
kapp19 said:
we know
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How possibly can you judge soul of another human?

I’m gonna repeat myself: Only God, the Most Just Judge can decide whether infants have sins or not.
And the only sinless human was The Most Blessed Virgin Mary (and Adam and Eve before fall).
 
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Because I have a brain.

Otherwise, what a tragedy it would be that we are not confessing and anointing dying infants… and that all the saints, doctors, and great moralists and canonists of the Church who speak of it agree with this “error.” After all, who are we to say that the newborn hasn’t been hurling mental blasphemies at Christ?

Toddlers start to have a vague idea of right and wrong - but the “age of reason” is when moral agency really “kicks in” (canonically defined as 7 at present - which is about right). The line is admittedly a bit blurry, but within the first year or two of life, there is no moral agency in a human being and no sane person can say otherwise after considering the meaning of the words “moral agency” rightly. They can’t use their intellect and will. Period. And the sacramental life of the Church from time immemorial confirms this.

-K
 
pohandes said:
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TheLittleLady:
A baptized infant is not capable of personal sin.
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So he has no sin?
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A baptised infant who has not reached the age of reason is free from sin.
 
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