Are we ALL really sinners?

[fhansen]

I found some evidences that point to “All people are sinners.”

Yes, we all start out sinners. But we’re not to remain there. We’re made new creations at Baptism and the rest of our lives are meant to be spent living up to to that calling with the help of grace, with the help of God, and become even better yet even if we may well slip back at times. You quoted the catechism. Here’s another quote from there:

2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."

God does not command what is impossible for man to achieve, with His help.

 

[pohandes]

Yes, we all start out sinners. But we’re not to remain there. We’re made new creations at Baptism and the rest of our lives are meant to be spent living up to to that calling with the help of grace, with the help of God, and become even better yet even if we may well slip back at times. You quoted the catechism. Here’s another quote from there:

2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."

God does not command what is impossible for man to achieve, with His help.

Then why Saint John says: “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8)?

 

[fhansen]

Conviction of sin is the first step; it’s the honest recognition of the truth-that we’re all sinners to begin with. Then we must read on:
"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God." 1 John 3:9

Good to read all of 1 John 3 in fact. Now it may take some time, and still involve some testing, struggle, refining, backsliding and repenting too, but God will have His way. No sinners enter heaven as Scripture maintains.

 

[Aulef]

Nope. That is a protestant misconception

 

[CathBoy1]

Theoretically a person could go their entire life without committing any kind of sin, albeit highly improbable so instead of saying “will” I would say “will likely”.

Yet this theoretical person was still born with the stain of Original Sin, which the RCC still views as sin (not personal sin, but sin nonetheless), hence all have sinned (except Jesus and Mary) is a correct statement, weather talking about infants or not.

 

[Vico]

…
Then why Saint John says: “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8)?

Sin can break our friendship with the Holy Trinity or it may not, depending upon what it done. All sin is voluntary, but not all sin is done as a personal choice after thinking about it or it may be a little matter. Some sin is only partly voluntary, for example sin done through fear.

 

[Tenzin]

Mary and Jesus. Jesus is fully human and fully god.

 

[Vico]

…
Is this true to say “we sin in any way” or not?

The sin could be mortal or venial. Normally mortal sin is what is talked about because through it we loose friendship with the Holy Trinity. Venial sin can lead to mortal sin, however.

Catechism 1863 states “Venial sin weakens charity … Deliberate and unrepented venial sin disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin.” (Disposes: prepares for.)

 

[Montrose]

This needs some qualification - over “in theory” and “could”…

Very simple. It means it is not 100% certain that everyone commits a sin.

 

[kapp19]

If you think it is “very simple” and are comfortable saying what you just said, then I think you need to review the doctrine of grace.

-K

 

[Montrose]

If you think it is “very simple” and are comfortable saying what you just said, then I think you need to review the doctrine of grace.

-K

Show me where the Church says that everyone has committed a sin and that it is not possible (however unlikely that is) for anyone never to commit a sin.
Bear in mind I am talking about personal sin.

 

[kapp19]

Sorry, you will need to take the time to do your own reading. I recommend Garrigou-Lagrange’s fine commentary on Grace, available on EWTN’s website.

Peace,
-K

 

[Montrose]

Sorry, you will need to take the time to do your own reading. I recommend Garrigou-Lagrange’s fine commentary on Grace, available on EWTN’s website.

Peace,
-K

I will look it up if you will answer my question.
Are you saying that it is impossible for anyone never to commit a personal sin.

 

[kapp19]

Again, you must be more precise in your words. In one way you are right, in another way you are wrong.

It is not except by an extraordinary grace that a human person has efficacious grace to avoid all actual sin. And we can name these persons immediately - the Blessed Virgin Mary, St. Joseph, St. John the Baptist… that’s about it, though maybe one is inclined to include the prophets and patriarchs. (And those habitually incapable of human acts, of course, commit no sin.)

It comes from Scripture, this doctrine… “All have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God,” and “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us,” etc. And Trent Session VI affirms this as well (see canons 11 and 12), and St. Thomas also agrees that venial sin is unavoidable in general despite each individual venial sin being avoidable. Again, it is by an extraordinary grace that one avoids all actual sin (or by an incapacity for human acts at all).

-K

 

[enoch1]

i think st thomas made the decision about original sin as a mistake. genesis is a creation myth. original sin doesnt exist, and everything is not a sin. we also didnt have the fall of man.
st thomas’s ideas of sex was wrong to. God didnt give us the gift of sex,for it to be sinful unless conception took place. Thomas even said at the end of one discussion the genesis was very complicated and more study needs to be done. everything i wrote is against church teaching,however this is what i believe. please dont rant and rave about how wrong i am , ive never told anyone this except sometimes in confession. my priest sometimes laughs at me,but i confess it anyway.